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Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread
- Thread starter dok
- Start date
Sorry to leave you as solofrog!
Shurrig
Active member
Thank you for your years here as a WoS judge! I always enjoyed reading your reviews, your blogs, and appreciate all the good work you’ve put into the map community as a whole. You were one of the first people commenting on my map thread, and that encouragement, that kindness you showed is something I never forgot.
Thank you Bigga, and continue doing great things!!
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
Shoots and Leaves by @GameBear
This is a somewhat abbreviated review but I have played several games on this map over the past month and a half. I was surprised at how dynamic the map feels, despite the expansive level 1 and significant level 0. I’m not sure that the level 1 shadow is optimally deployed, but the options chosen seem reasonable enough.
Having no level 2 jungle, and no level 1 jungle/shadow combo spaces, shows some strategic accommodations of general map-building principles to the slim requirements of this particular build. While it sometimes feels that movement is tight because of the level 0 near the SZ, most figures have plenty of options for movement throughout the map, and its small size allows for these moves to feel almost as efficient.
I enjoyed this map most when at least one army had a significant range component, but it’s also decent in melee mirrors. For the sets, hard to imagine doing better.
Unfortunately I don’t think this vote will be changing any outcomes (and maybe if I had more time I’d come to a different conclusion), but I’ll go ahead and end off the voting period of Shoots and Leaves with an
This is a somewhat abbreviated review but I have played several games on this map over the past month and a half. I was surprised at how dynamic the map feels, despite the expansive level 1 and significant level 0. I’m not sure that the level 1 shadow is optimally deployed, but the options chosen seem reasonable enough.
Having no level 2 jungle, and no level 1 jungle/shadow combo spaces, shows some strategic accommodations of general map-building principles to the slim requirements of this particular build. While it sometimes feels that movement is tight because of the level 0 near the SZ, most figures have plenty of options for movement throughout the map, and its small size allows for these moves to feel almost as efficient.
I enjoyed this map most when at least one army had a significant range component, but it’s also decent in melee mirrors. For the sets, hard to imagine doing better.
Unfortunately I don’t think this vote will be changing any outcomes (and maybe if I had more time I’d come to a different conclusion), but I’ll go ahead and end off the voting period of Shoots and Leaves with an
Last edited by a moderator:
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
A few announcements:
Our OP is out of date due to the site transfer. At the moment I'm waiting for that to get fixed but we may have to bite the bullet and reformat it soon.
Shoots and Leaves has failed, 1-1.
We have voted to extend the timer to 6 months rather than 4, beginning with Fire Isles.
Our OP is out of date due to the site transfer. At the moment I'm waiting for that to get fixed but we may have to bite the bullet and reformat it soon.
Shoots and Leaves has failed, 1-1.
We have voted to extend the timer to 6 months rather than 4, beginning with Fire Isles.
A few notes before I start:
1) I like to link to the map I'm judging, but I can't seem to get it to work with the new migration to this site. I'm sorry about that.
2) I am an old BoV guy, so I'll admit that I love seeing classic maps reworked with modern mapmaking skills. I'm a little biased.
I have enjoyed, so much, the chance to play on Fire Isles: OEAO Edition. I have played on the classic at numerous events and game nights. A definite classic. Sadly, the original, like many BoV maps from many years back, just doesn't work as well today. I get it. It has some issues. 2008 is a while ago.
When I saw the new Fire Isles, I was immediately excited. It eliminates all the separate water isles (including the ones holding the glyphs), it eliminates the molten lava, and the separation between the two hills. These are great changes. And for those who run events and are tired of the two small ruins maps, this one recommends two large ruins. Bonus.
What it did not get rid of was the high points being lava fields, which is a dynamic I really love in Scape. It's a nice nod to heroes in a world full of (mostly) 1 life squad figures. And it helps melee against many ranged units. (I almost always include a lava map at events; I think they add an important element to the map pool.)
I was surprised to see the choice to have one of the glyphs end up being within 6 flying spaces of a start zone. The water and other features mitigates this, but it did surprise me. I do like seeing glyphs on level 0.
This map is still small and fierce. Choices are critical and the lava fields keep most everyone on the move. Games are tightly fought and your second string is always close behind, unless you're all the way in your enemy's start zone. All areas of this map see action (except maybe the two water puddles near the center, but they only add to the dynamic flow of the game around them).
Melee is grateful for the small map footprint and that most range is hot footing off the high points before each turn's end. Range is forced to be smart, but can definitely still chew up an unwise melee player.
The relative height in the middle, including important points where a unit can attack to most of the highest points from the safety of safe ground (two more of these than the original), adds to the dynamic flow and strategic choices. Nicely done.
This is an excellent revision of a classic and one that I would love to see join the WoV. YES to induct.
1) I like to link to the map I'm judging, but I can't seem to get it to work with the new migration to this site. I'm sorry about that.
2) I am an old BoV guy, so I'll admit that I love seeing classic maps reworked with modern mapmaking skills. I'm a little biased.
I have enjoyed, so much, the chance to play on Fire Isles: OEAO Edition. I have played on the classic at numerous events and game nights. A definite classic. Sadly, the original, like many BoV maps from many years back, just doesn't work as well today. I get it. It has some issues. 2008 is a while ago.
When I saw the new Fire Isles, I was immediately excited. It eliminates all the separate water isles (including the ones holding the glyphs), it eliminates the molten lava, and the separation between the two hills. These are great changes. And for those who run events and are tired of the two small ruins maps, this one recommends two large ruins. Bonus.
What it did not get rid of was the high points being lava fields, which is a dynamic I really love in Scape. It's a nice nod to heroes in a world full of (mostly) 1 life squad figures. And it helps melee against many ranged units. (I almost always include a lava map at events; I think they add an important element to the map pool.)
I was surprised to see the choice to have one of the glyphs end up being within 6 flying spaces of a start zone. The water and other features mitigates this, but it did surprise me. I do like seeing glyphs on level 0.
This map is still small and fierce. Choices are critical and the lava fields keep most everyone on the move. Games are tightly fought and your second string is always close behind, unless you're all the way in your enemy's start zone. All areas of this map see action (except maybe the two water puddles near the center, but they only add to the dynamic flow of the game around them).
Melee is grateful for the small map footprint and that most range is hot footing off the high points before each turn's end. Range is forced to be smart, but can definitely still chew up an unwise melee player.
The relative height in the middle, including important points where a unit can attack to most of the highest points from the safety of safe ground (two more of these than the original), adds to the dynamic flow and strategic choices. Nicely done.
This is an excellent revision of a classic and one that I would love to see join the WoV. YES to induct.
So after playing on it extensively at Scapecon I would like to change my vote on Flaxen Shard, the problem I figured out in my testing games didn't came out once at Scaepcon. Actually most player poded behind the ruin rather than on the left. Maybe I did set up too "campy" machups during my testing. The Valda and Wannok setup was very very good for this map.
Anyway it is was blats to play on, and while I think Percolator is sightly superior this is really a matter of personnal taste, both maps are very good and Flaxxen Shard doesn't have any problem, very balanced ans plays very dynamic, this is a very popular map in the community. I'll vote YES to induct.
Dredgewood Forest
This was my Scapecon favorite, I love that it's a 2xRttFF map that does things differently that the classic "road zigzag between trees".When I first played it I was afraid those double level 4 would be too strong and that the whole fight would cater around the middle, but after playing on it, yes they are strong points of attention, but there are different ways to attack them or to go around them, the map as a lot to offer.
The map is full of small features and areas that can all creates points of attention, I was surprised how on so many games on player was able to surprise the opponnent with a play either by going around and attacking in a unspected target, grabbing a glyph or blocking off some critic paths.
Felt like Yngwild was also a great glyph for it.
I very appreciate that all 3 ways of development (left, middle, right) feel quite equals, I also like the snowball potential this map can give, big incentive to range to go forward and play the map. It's a good map for dragons, but nothing crazy, as I said multiples ways to attack them. I really didn't see any balance problem on this map.
Dredgewood Forest as grown on me as one of my favorites and I am eager to play it more in tournaments! YES to induct!
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
In lieu of an op update while we wait for the recent edits to go live on this new site, here’s where we’re currently at on the maps in our queue:
Fire Isles: 3-1
Guts: 0-0
Stechavan: 2-0
Alta: 1-0
Flaxen Shard: 1-1
Vixen: 0-0
Dredgewood Forest: 1-0
Frostmire: 0-0
Fire Isles: 3-1
Guts: 0-0
Stechavan: 2-0
Alta: 1-0
Flaxen Shard: 1-1
Vixen: 0-0
Dredgewood Forest: 1-0
Frostmire: 0-0
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
I'd like to nominate
[snip]
Flaxen Shard by @Ulysses
Link to PDF
This map was used in OHS Season 57 as well as at Hexicon II.
This map was used to great effect at ScapeCon IV and from everything I saw and heard it was a fan favorite. Having tested it for a vote earlier, I had already liked the map, but that opinion has only solidified over the last few months. I will repeat my
.
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
Let’s have another, shall we?
Dredgewood Forest
This map is the best Sir H map I’ve ever played. Since its nomination, I’ve played it in two different events (C3V Playtesting tourney and OHS 59) and it remains a very solid map. Development options are plentiful, and big swaths of the map see play. In my games, the road was used more to go right/center than it was to go left, but there are certainly still development paths to the left, even if the road doesn’t get as much love on that side.
Dredgewood suffers from particularly cursed build instructions for a map with such generous requirements (the very asymmetrical first layer gets me every time I look at it). Even still, it has clear start zones and a nice compact footprint. The single rock hex near the SZ may cause some stability complaints if it gets knocked around too much but doesn’t make for a great Raelin spot as she can’t protect a screen in front of the level 4 2-hex in the center.
Speaking of the level 2 SZ perch and the level 4 heights, Dredgewood Forest is pretty unique in that it has no level 3 perches. A few existing WoS maps have this (Invasion, Percolator, Remains), but the overwhelming majority of maps do. Here, it works out well to have so much smooth level 3, and the level 4 heights all play dynamically, as they each are adjacent to the road. Even the three-hex that has a corner removed from the road pathing is helpful, as it drives traffic into the level 3 even ground of the center of the map.
I really do think this map could have been redone to include a standard ruin configuration, I took a crack at it a few months ago and was pretty happy with how it came out. But it’s hard to argue with how well this map has played, and the (deserved) respect that it has among players.
to induct.
Dredgewood Forest
This map is the best Sir H map I’ve ever played. Since its nomination, I’ve played it in two different events (C3V Playtesting tourney and OHS 59) and it remains a very solid map. Development options are plentiful, and big swaths of the map see play. In my games, the road was used more to go right/center than it was to go left, but there are certainly still development paths to the left, even if the road doesn’t get as much love on that side.
Dredgewood suffers from particularly cursed build instructions for a map with such generous requirements (the very asymmetrical first layer gets me every time I look at it). Even still, it has clear start zones and a nice compact footprint. The single rock hex near the SZ may cause some stability complaints if it gets knocked around too much but doesn’t make for a great Raelin spot as she can’t protect a screen in front of the level 4 2-hex in the center.
Speaking of the level 2 SZ perch and the level 4 heights, Dredgewood Forest is pretty unique in that it has no level 3 perches. A few existing WoS maps have this (Invasion, Percolator, Remains), but the overwhelming majority of maps do. Here, it works out well to have so much smooth level 3, and the level 4 heights all play dynamically, as they each are adjacent to the road. Even the three-hex that has a corner removed from the road pathing is helpful, as it drives traffic into the level 3 even ground of the center of the map.
I really do think this map could have been redone to include a standard ruin configuration, I took a crack at it a few months ago and was pretty happy with how it came out. But it’s hard to argue with how well this map has played, and the (deserved) respect that it has among players.
to induct.
I'd like to nominate 2 maps.
Firstly, Alta by @Flash_19
Link to PDF
This map was used at Scape Summit, as well as in OHS Season 55.
I haven't played too many games on this one myself, but the map got a really good reception from those who attended Scape Summit. To quote a couple of people in the Tournament Map Feedback thread:
I realise that this map is certain to receive a downvote from Ken due to the terrain requirements, however the map is good enough that I think it's worth nominating anyway.
The second map I'd like to nominate (or perhaps that should be re-nominate) is Flaxen Shard by @Ulysses
Link to PDF
This map was used in OHS Season 57 as well as at Hexicon II.
This map is really good and didn't deserve to time out at 2-2 last time. Besides the tournaments that I mentioned, this map has been used at numerous monthly events over the last year, and has had several high-profile games featured on it, such as the final match of Sir Heroscape's CCL Championship series, or the recent finals of OHS 57. One of the WoS judges who didn't vote on the map last time has publicly stated that they were going to upvote but didn't end up submitting their vote before the deadline, and I think there is a genuine chance that Flaxen Shard could become the first map to be inducted into the WoS with a final result of 6-2. (Assuming that neither OEAO or Ken change their vote from last time).
(Also, as an aside, the issue with the glyphs on this map not having adjacent height is overblown imo. On a lot of modern maps, the glyphs often don’t feel worth taking (unless it’s a powerful glyph like Valda or Dagmar) because the figure on the glyph has to give up height advantage to the opponent. I find the lack of adjacent height on Flaxen Shard really refreshing, as it means I might actually consider grabbing a weaker glyph like Lodin or Lorja Ivor - something that I would almost never do otherwise. I realise this is probably not going to change anyone's opinion of the map outright, but it's something I thought was worth mentioning, since all 4 judges who voted brought this feature up as a minor grievance last time.)
ALTA:
Alta is a good map. The road is well-used, and the runs of height are good. Frankly, the map might be good enough...
But I can't get past the aspects that are oh-so-easily improvable that I believe would push this map over the edge from good to great.
First, I want the road to extend at least one more hex into the warehouse ruin to threaten that podding spot just a bit more. The very first road space adjacent to the SZ can be removed with no issue.
Second, I'm sick of seeing people placing their figures in the 5 asphalt spaces that are not part of the SZ. These should not be asphalt. This is very easy to remedy.
Third, I want the space behind the elbow of the warehouse to be level 2. Not only will this will make attacking that 7-hex a bit easier, but it will also add a good development spot for melee and allow melee to swivel around the back of the ruin without having to drop down to level 1.
Finally, the shadow spaces should be reworked. The 3-hex is there because it fits and sees very little play, as do a few of the other shadows.
I know Flash is looking into these issues (which, again, are extremely easy to fix). I look forward to upvoting a future version, but for now, NO to induct.
FLAXEN SHARD:
Like Foudzing, my vote has flipped post-ScapeCon. I never felt great about my no vote because I didn't really have articulable concerns like I usually have in my reviews. I try to include helpful and actionable advice when possible, and a vote of "idk I liked it but didn't love it" isn't helpful.
Two things have changed since my last vote. First, I was playing with the glyphs on level 1 instead of level 2. I actually really like the glyphs being on level 2 here- it's a welcome boost for melee.
Second, the staging ground immediately behind the ruins with the option to strike across or hit the sides from that position is somehow pretty unique- there really aren't many maps that feature this setup. I have really enjoyed my games on it for that aspect alone.
Ulysses has managed to make the third RotV + TJ map that is worthy of induction. It stands up with the others (Fulcrum and Percolator) while providing a different experience. YES to induct.
I would like to nominate Dredgewood Forest and Frostmire for WoS's consideration. Both maps were played at Scapecon IV and have been played at numerous events before, and have proven to be strong competitive maps. They also both use set combinations that are already represented in the WoS, but do their combinations in distinctly different ways. They have been some of my favorite maps to play on recently and always provide excellent gameplay.
Dredgewood Forest
Spoiler Alert!
Frostmire
Spoiler Alert!
DREDGEWOOD FOREST:
I played quite a few games of this map pre-ScapeCon, and I was really impressed. I prefer smaller/narrower maps, and 15 across is a really nice size for this map. The whole map often sees play. Range is incentivized to contest the level 4 early (running up for early shots). Melee is able to develop up onto level 2 and level 3 quite easily, with plenty of level 2 road staging grounds. The ruins serve as really nice LOS blockers. Figures often dodge from level 4 height to level 4 height. Overall, I've found the map to be quite dynamic. It's an excellent addition to WOS. YES to induct.
FROSTMIRE:
Speaking of smaller maps, I have been a fan of Frostmire since I tried the original version in 2020. However, that version had some issues: the 7-hex glaciers were extremely hard to move around, and the sides were kind of a mess.
I sent the updates that eventually became this version of the map to Flash not knowing if they would work, but I'm happy to see that they did. The 4-hex glaciers are much easier to move around with the smooth level 2, and the sides are actually playable and interesting. Games often see figures moving all around the map, leading to interesting tactical decisions. Extending the level 3 single-hexes on each side of the level 4 hexes are also a welcome improvement for double-spacers to prevent denial issues. And while the level 3 double-hex right outside the starting zone is strong, it is relatively easy to quickly approach and challenge that position. Overall, I think this is one of the best Tundra maps, and easily deserving of WOS. YES to induct.
I'd like to nominate two maps of mine:
Guts
Tournament Use
- MARS Philadelphia - Valhallan Valetines' Day
- Peoria Monthlies 2024- AoA Returns!
- Hexicon II
This version of Guts also saw play in the playoffs of OST S6 Alliance Pod Draft
Very grateful this map has seen so much play recently. Guts is fairly new to the tournament scene, but I'm nominating it to WoS today because there are not many tournament maps with this set combination (Hot Fulcrum, If You Can't Take the Heat..., and ...Stay Out of the Kitchen are the only maps that come to mind) and none have been inducted.
I love lava maps, I love jungle maps, and I love the way swamp looks with lava, so I'll admit to being a bit biased toward this map. It does have some things I don't like in maps (like the water slicing the start zone for little significant value (in my opinion) and the use of the 7-hex sand pieces in the start zones, where there is an available 7-hex swamp piece that could easily be switched with it--but those are minor and mostly aesthetics). I will admit that I do now play mine with the sand in the hill and swamp in the start zone, but again, just aesthetics.
The map itself is a nice mix of jungle cover, spaced out height, and lava in all the right places. The full map saw play because of the glyphs and outside lava perches. The sand mixed into the lava in the center proved critical in several games as melee was able to dispatch ranged units stepping off height (or watched them burn with a die roll). The map favors single unit ranged units, but the lava makes that favoring less significant and there are always plenty of ways to surround and take down (or watch burn) a ranged unit.
I know not everyone likes swathes of lava across the center and high points of a map, but I really enjoy the dynamism that lava maps like this bring. (Critical, though, to this map's success is the sand sprinkled within the lava, making placement interesting and significant as a turn comes to an end.) Every game was active, melee felt balanced with range, and I appreciate the little details (minus the two I mentioned at the beginning) that make this map work well.
I vote to induct Guts to the WoS.
SkyWhale
Active member
After using it in 3 tournaments in a row and singing its praises on the Heroscapers Discord, I have decided I would like to nominate Stoker by GameBear.
Stoker
Tournament use:
- Michigan Monthlies November 2023, March 2024, May 2024, and September 2024
- OST Season 3
- MARS DC AoA Pods
When looking into submitting this map I noticed that WoS doesn't have any Marvel maps, or any VW maps without BftU. I think Stoker uses Marvel's terrain very well to aesthetically pair with the castle walls and lava field, and the FotA and VW terrain sets are used to great effect to make for balanced and fun games in all sorts of matchups. I've also used this game for plenty pre-tournament practice games, and have yet to have a bad experience with it.
Stoker
Tournament use:
- Michigan Monthlies November 2023, March 2024, May 2024, and September 2024
- OST Season 3
- MARS DC AoA Pods
When looking into submitting this map I noticed that WoS doesn't have any Marvel maps, or any VW maps without BftU. I think Stoker uses Marvel's terrain very well to aesthetically pair with the castle walls and lava field, and the FotA and VW terrain sets are used to great effect to make for balanced and fun games in all sorts of matchups. I've also used this game for plenty pre-tournament practice games, and have yet to have a bad experience with it.