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Tournament Map Feedback Thread

vegietarian18

vegietarian18

Online HS Season 10 Champion
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I wanted to start a thread to allow mapmakers a place to ask for and receive feedback on their tournament-style maps. Feel free to solicit feedback on your maps post-tournament use here, or give unsolicited feedback on maps you just played tournament games on.

Ideally, feedback will be given by those who have played tournament games on maps, but at-home games in tournament formats are equally relevant. Some theorymapping is allowed as well. Please do not solicit feedback on maps that you made but have not yet playtested.

This thread is not affiliated with WoS or BoV. Anyone is free to give feedback on maps, including but in no way limited to WoS judges. Feedback is welcome on any map, including WoS or BoV maps, but the goal is to give feedback on maps that creators are willing and especially looking to make improvements.
 
Great idea for a thread!

I guess I'll start, really curious for thoughts on Styx + Stones after it was played in OHS last week.

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Styx and Stones build instructions. It uses 1 BftU, 1 FotA, and 1 VW, with 2 random glyphs.

online board
 
I think this is a great, long overdue idea. For no good reason, it’s always such a hassle tracking down feedback post-tournaments.

I know before my wife and I moved and stopped hosting events I had set up a Google sheet that people could fill out at (or after) the event so that I could get feedback on the map pool and individual maps, and pass that on to each map’s creator.

EDIT: I’ll add that while I’m sure at-home game feedback is fine here, it would probably best be served in the creator’s own map thread.
 
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I'll get the ball rolling with some feedback on Styx and Stones. :)

I've played four tournament games on this map. Two on the old version, two on the new version. OHS Quad Pod game on the old version where I won by lava dunking hybrids with Werewolf Lord. Two Peoria tournaments, one on each version, where I won by rolling across the board with Heavies and Utgar Heroes. OHS Bring 2 game where I narrowly won with Varks over Zelrig.

Styx and Stones has a very unique feel to it. The combination of tight corridors with lots of LoS blockers and the central lava makes for extremely tight and sharp games. My initial reaction to this map is that it was very small, and that's been true of every version. 1x BftU maps are always a challenge, as Typhon can attest. He built the gold standard 1x BftU map in Dance of the Dryads, which is 1x BftU 1x RttFF 1x VW. Styx and Stones is a very comparable map, switching the RttFF for a FotA. Dance of the Dryads is able to work as such a small map with this set combo because it's very economical with its terrain. There are three different lanes created by the big tree and the big rock outcrop, the water on the edges of the board is made relevant by glyphs. It also has some pretty big holes floating under the level 2 24 hex dungeon tiles that make the map much bigger, for the sake of some structural stability.

My initial reaction to Styx and Stones was that it wasn't quite as successful with the challenge of feeling big with a small terrain set. The initial version had a lot of "dead hexes", lava over on sides of the board that wasn't worth stepping on. It also didn't use any of the water tiles, and only used molten lava as a visual startzone connector. The new version helped a lot with that, and the sides feel much more relevant. The ladders help speed up development on to the side hills which is great. The middle sees less immediate play as a result, but that's fine, it comes up later in games. The new version switched all the startzone connector lava for water, which prevents my lava dunk win on the old version but doesn't change much otherwise. Traversing the water that connects the startzones is not really practical.

The most exploitable part of the new version is that the 3 hex startzone area on the right side. This area of the map feels much more developed than the other startzone areas, like figures who start there are a full turn ahead of figures elsewhere. I started Krug here in my Peoria tournament game this weekend and on his second turn he was easily on lava height smashing enemies. My dad struggled with an Estivara placed here in his OHS game on this map.

A more minor point of feedback is the level 2 2 hex lava directly outside the startzone, behind the 3 hex dungeon tiles. I truly don't think people will use those hexes as they are right now, and they would use it more if it were level 1 dungeon like the tiles beneath. I think it could be good to take that level 2 lava and try to spend it somewhere else where it has higher impact.
 
In Which Dysole Tries To Give Map Feedback

End of the Line

There's a lot of lines and none of them have well defined end points. Unclear which one you're referring to.

Asylum

Needs doors to trap figures inside the middle and really sell the theme.

#DysoleMapReviews


Okay, let's get serious now (mostly). Map assessment is admittedly one of my weakest points in this game and a lot of my thoughts are based on feel so bear with me if I have all the precision of Venoc Viper on caffeine.

End of the Line

My game on this map was mostly a range v range battle especially after a Wyvern died in two hits to Microcorp Troopers and spiders were just annoyances after that. The start zone was a bit awkward and I think we actually had placement of the figures wrong at first. Looking at it, I guess the rule is a bit easy to remember (back 3 rows), but it's not intuitive.

The actual map played well enough. The ladder startzone area was nice for development but it'd be pretty easy to turn that area into a chokepoint if you were fast enough. I also remember thinking the ruins by the glyphs were annoying and kinda felt like they took figures over there out of the game.

The central heights not being road is probably a good thing (although I remember there was a weird LoS thing caused by some battlements when I was trying to shoot across the field; ambivalent as to whether that's a plus or a minus). At least for range it very much felt like get to those height spots as fast as possible and then shoot down. Didn't really get any melee action myself but the road did allow for spiders and Asterios to make some plays. I'm not confident but rats and range probably have a good time with this map and I think melee would need to be a bit more aggressive than they want to. Would have to actually play it out but that's my gut as I think about it.

Overall not a bad map; the pieces worked together but it felt similar to a lot of other maps I've played where I'm shooting across the center road at the other hills.


Asylum

Didn't actually play with enough figures to fit in the water start zones so didn't know they were there. Looking at the map though my first thought regarding them was "Pain". I actually liked the way the middle played a lot even if it quickly became a game of 4th and Romans hogging the whole place (my defense dice were atrocious this game as HSBs decided to have the staying power of Cutters) but my opponents still had to think carefully in this middle area about how they were going to play.

I absolutely hated the side hills though. It's way too easy for range to set up on either side and make anything with 5 move really pay the price. I lost so many Brutes to 4th and MBS and got maybe one attack in response. The "staging ground" right about the water start zones felt like a good deployment point (and we had Q10 sit there for a while firing his merciful wrist rocket before he moved to the center) but I liked it more for filling from the sides rather than up from the water. You can probably lose the battlements by their lonesomes on that whole section as melee would really like to throw an extra dude up there and the battlements make that harder.

Overall, I think the stuff I liked about this map I liked a lot and the stuff I hated about this map I hated a lot.

~Dysole, with no idea how helpful this feedback is
 
Re: In Which Dysole Tries To Give Map Feedback

Dysole said:
Asylum

Needs doors to trap figures inside the middle and really sell the theme.

#DysoleMapReviews
Click to expand...

Not the Asylum definition I intended. :razz:

Oxford Languages said:
Asylum
The protection granted by a nation to someone who has left their native country as a political refugee.
Click to expand...

Asylum

Didn't actually play with enough figures to fit in the water start zones so didn't know they were there. Looking at the map though my first thought regarding them was "Pain". I actually liked the way the middle played a lot even if it quickly became a game of 4th and Romans hogging the whole place (my defense dice were atrocious this game as HSBs decided to have the staying power of Cutters) but my opponents still had to think carefully in this middle area about how they were going to play.

I absolutely hated the side hills though. It's way too easy for range to set up on either side and make anything with 5 move really pay the price. I lost so many Brutes to 4th and MBS and got maybe one attack in response. The "staging ground" right about the water start zones felt like a good deployment point (and we had Q10 sit there for a while firing his merciful wrist rocket before he moved to the center) but I liked it more for filling from the sides rather than up from the water. You can probably lose the battlements by their lonesomes on that whole section as melee would really like to throw an extra dude up there and the battlements make that harder.

Overall, I think the stuff I liked about this map I liked a lot and the stuff I hated about this map I hated a lot.

~Dysole, with no idea how helpful this feedback is
Click to expand...

This is some great feedback! I am really glad the center played well for you. That was the part I liked the most but was also my biggest cause for curiosity.

Speaking of curiosity, do you remember which side your opponents approached the side hills from (sand or grass)? They're both pretty similar so it probably doesn't matter, but again, just curious. Regardless, I will keep an eye on this in future games and if your situation becomes a pattern I will start working on a solution.

The water start zones/battlements are intended to punish extra large armies. You can always put flying figures back there or 5 height, 5 move (or any comparable figure) can still climb over to land on the level 2 road spaces. It's not a big deal to change it but that's the idea. :)

Thanks again for your time and feedback!
 
Recollection

MBS came up sand way. 4th came up grass way. MBS was able to sit on the sand off the road and shoot until there was a screen to protect him and 4th just were able to camp onto that grass hill way too easily.

~Dysole, again noting that she did have awful defense dice so sample size of one and all that
 
I'm giving some feedback on this week's OHS map, Dark Fulcrum by GameBear.

darkfulcrum2_2VK.jpg


This was my first game on this map, but I've obviously played quite a few games on its parent map, Fulcrum. It's mostly the same. The primary feature of Fulcrum in my opinion is the three-hex level 3 perch directly outside the startzone, and this map keeps that. The change outside the startzone from ruins to 3 hex glaciers doesn't make the map feel much different. The change from water to shadow on the path up to the level 4 rock zone changes the map a little bit, but that water was never a major hassle. I do like the way it opens up pathing towards the top a little bit more though.

What I'm not sure about is the big stripe of shadow down the middle. Every space on that stripe either stacks Jungle and Shadow, or is a Shadow space with no adjacent height. Shadow with no adjacent height is extremely rare, and there's four hexes of it in central location on this board. Those two things make the middle of the board much safer than Fulcrum, which I don't think is needed.
 
vegietarian18 said:
I'm giving some feedback on this week's OHS map, Dark Fulcrum by GameBear.

darkfulcrum2_2VK.jpg


This was my first game on this map, but I've obviously played quite a few games on its parent map, Fulcrum. It's mostly the same. The primary feature of Fulcrum in my opinion is the three-hex level 3 perch directly outside the startzone, and this map keeps that. The change outside the startzone from ruins to 3 hex glaciers doesn't make the map feel much different. The change from water to shadow on the path up to the level 4 rock zone changes the map a little bit, but that water was never a major hassle. I do like the way it opens up pathing towards the top a little bit more though.

What I'm not sure about is the big stripe of shadow down the middle. Every space on that stripe either stacks Jungle and Shadow, or is a Shadow space with no adjacent height. Shadow with no adjacent height is extremely rare, and there's four hexes of it in central location on this board. Those two things make the middle of the board much safer than Fulcrum, which I don't think is needed.
Click to expand...

I would like to start off by explaining that I am by no means a map expert, but I will happily share my opinions! I agree with Vegie about the even ground shadow. It is very rare to have shadow not next to height. However, I think I prefer the overall affect the middle strip of shadow plus jungle has on the map over the original. This is due to the level 5 single perches on the two sides of the board. I really do not like single hex perches, especially those that allow a 7 range figure to be on the highest point of the board and to have a threat range that reaches half of a start zone. The original Fulcrum has this same issue, so I like how the middle becomes stronger against range due to the shadow and jungle, as well as the removal of water for ease of access to those top points. In general I like the addition of shadow on this map. My other comment is more of a pet peeve, I strongly dislike maps that have water in the start zone. this map takes a third of your start zone and turns it into water. Maps can do this well, but I am not sold on this particular implementation. Hopefully this does not come off as to harsh, I am only mentioning the issues I had with the map. I did enjoy playing on the map, and its flaws do not out weigh its good points.
 
Dark Fulcrum

Vegie and KoL, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts! Both reports are great!

KnightOfLight said:
I strongly dislike maps that have water in the start zone. this map takes a third of your start zone and turns it into water. Maps can do this well, but I am not sold on this particular implementation.
Click to expand...
You are not alone in disliking watery start zones. Unfortunately, you are stuck with it on this map, for two reasons: 1) I like putting water in start zones; and 2) all the available terrain is being used. I am interested in hearing what aspects of this implementation bother you most, though.

vegietarian18 said:
What I'm not sure about is the big stripe of shadow down the middle.
Click to expand...
That's a good observation. I do want the middle to be safer than it was on the original Fulcrum, but if the shadow spaces not adjacent to height prove to be an issue, those are easy to relocate. Hopefully more players in the current OHS season will weigh in with their experiences.

Thanks, both of you.
 
Re: Dark Fulcrum

GameBear said:
Vegie and KoL, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts! Both reports are great!

KnightOfLight said:
I strongly dislike maps that have water in the start zone. this map takes a third of your start zone and turns it into water. Maps can do this well, but I am not sold on this particular implementation.
Click to expand...
You are not alone in disliking watery start zones. Unfortunately, you are stuck with it on this map, for two reasons: 1) I like putting water in start zones; and 2) all the available terrain is being used. I am interested in hearing what aspects of this implementation bother you most, though.

That’s fair, I guess for me, I don’t like how it limits 5 move non-flying figures. Losing a point of movement because of water just doesn’t feel good to me. I understand it is probably unavoidable given the terrain, so it’s not a deal breaker for me. This particular implementation has been growing on my the more I look at it, as the majority of the spaces still have a move that places them adjacent to jungle or on shadow. The only other small thing regarding the water that bothers me is when 2 tiles are adjacent, forcing you to take slightly less advantageous pathing to get to where you want to go.
Click to expand...
 
Before I Forget Again

DARK FULCRUM

Yes! A showdown between Fulcrum fighting on the side of good and its evil twin DARK Fulcrum. A fight for the ages. Good and evil hang in the balance! Oh it's Fulcrum with Shadows. Okay I guess. *disappointment noises*

#DysoleMapReviews


All kidding aside, I don't think I really got a chance to judge this map since most of the fight took place right outside the hill on the right start zone. It was basically a melee vs melee fight and most of it was just me advancing to that spot and then whittling down everyone in that spot. I think changing the line of shadow is probably a good call, but it played almost no impact in my game. Everything else seems fine but only playing on 1/4 of the map, I'm not sure how good of a feel for the map I got.

~Dysole, noting that it did feel a bit static for what was basically a melee v melee match but that feels inevitable
 
I am giving feedback on this week's OHS map, Eyohi.

eyohi_6nx.png


Eyohi uses an often-attempted but difficult to master terrain set: 2x Dungeon 1x Jungle. I personally think this combo is extremely difficult to make perfect because of the double defensive boosts from Jungle and Shadow. The gold standard board is imo Typhon's Borogroves, which failed the original WoS. Some other solid boards with this set combo are Sirocco, Caldera, and Jabberwock.

Like most of these other boards, this board has a big shadow pool. Unlike the other boards, the shadow pool here is on level 2 instead of 0 of 1. Instead of a stacked pool of shadow and jungle in the middle, jungle shields you on the way out of the startzone on the way to the level 2 shadow pool. It's an interesting angle to fix the problems these boards have had, but I think those boards played a little more dynamically than Eyohi. On those boards, the hills on the sides pull you to the sides, while the shadow up the middle offered a quicker path to traverse the board. Here, you kind of just run up the middle to take the height and the shadow. The level 3 and 4 spaces above the shadow offer an angle to threaten the shadow pool, reminiscent of Stygian Rift, so that's interesting. Intuitively during my game I felt like the middle rock spaces should have been the level 4 instead of the dungeon spaces on the side, but that may just be me.

Ultimately I think I'd need some more games to really have a strong opinion. This board doesn't have any major flaws: doesn't pull strongly in any direction out of the startzone, doesn't have any super threatening Raelin perches. But I guess personally when it comes to such heavily tread ground as 2x Dungeon 1x Jungle, I'm looking for something really special to justify itself over these other solid boards using this set combo.
 
I'm giving feedback on Ruined City by Leaf_It, this week's OHS map.

9b9yjz59cx5gq4azg.jpg


I've actually played this map quite a few times. It's a staple at our Peoria tournaments because of limited collections here and I want to preface this review by saying that this is a stunning map for how good it is for the terrain limitations. I don't know if anyone has even tried to make a viable map with 2x Marvel and 1 expansion set. Marvel is actually relatively easy to find nowadays so a map like this really fits well with what some new players own.

I do think it's too small though. I think the smallness is exacerbated by the layout of the map, where the startzones are almost in the middle. Any ranged army can start shooting into the enemy startzone on turn 1. The walls don't really stop that. The smallness of the board is very exploitable, imo. Games on this map are a lot shorter than normal and they tend to revolve around hitting figures in the startzone, and controlling the few hills on the board. Without lots of line of sight blockers games are very fast-paced and sharp, which I think can lead to frustrating play. The glyphs are also really far apart, to the point where the games rarely use the full board, which isn't great for a map this small.

I think using some more castle pillars, to add LoS blockers and just make the map bigger, would help a ton. The alley down the middle is my main concern, I think that shouldn't be a straight shot.

Ultimately I think my suggestions are basically saying I think it's possible to build a WoS viable map out of these sets, but it would likely require an almost completely different map. I'm thinking something between Ruined City and Styx and Stones. But honestly I'd leave Ruined City exactly as it is because it's such a great step forward to chart this space.
 
Wondering if anybody from the current OHS season has any thoughts after playing on Slalom last round.

Thanks!
 
I’d be really interested in any and all map thoughts post-ScapeCon, obviously on my map Wingspan but also some of the other less established maps in the pool: Percolator, Desolation, Blackridge, Odin Wept.
 
Wingspan - I like it more now that I've played more games on it. The perch outside the startzone gets a lot of flak, and it does define melee vs. range matchup, but there's a Fulcrum sort of dynamic where the height in the middle threaten that startzone perch well. And the middle height is much more reachable than Fulcrum's. The shadow up the middle is fun but there's not so much jungle and shadow that it feels overpowering. Probably my favorite of the new maps there.

Blackridge - My least favorite map of the pool. It's very small, and the 1-hex road perches get so much action and are very hard to meaningfully contest. I think Royal Gardens is substantially better with the same sets.

Odin Wept - It's okay, but range can create a nasty pod outside their startzone with two figures placed on either side of the big 3-hex glacier. Directly outside the startzone on that big level 2 flat area is by far the safest place on the map. It played unique to anything else in the pool, felt like you were fighting against the lava, so that's fun. I don't think it's terrible but I'm not sure it does anything special enough.

Percolator - Didn't play a ton of games on it. It's a hill map so I think it leads to more snowbally games if you win the hill and roll downwards, but the top of the hill has fun gameplay. I think it would be better if the water in the middle were removed to open up more paths.
 
Similar comments as Vegie^

Wingspan - Really like it overall...but that 2-hex felt like the obvious choice to setup shop. That said, shadow jungle center and higher height in the middle does help with that. Most of my games felt fine on this map.

Blackridge - small and pulls VERY left. I almost never developed right as the space and natural position felt harder to reinforce and setup on that side. Wasn't too crazy about this one...and yes that 1-hex road on multiple occasions just won games with a Kaemon Awa or whoever setting up shop there.

Odin Wept - having played on this map over the weekend A LOT, I have a really good sense of how it plays. I won most of my games on it, but the games weren't very enjoyable. The map lends itself to EXTREME podding for range setting up on that flat zone behind the glacier and controlling the right side glyph. For Melee mathups, lava was BRUTAL, and the snow hex in the center next to the center glacier was a very obvious raelin perch. But you could also just leave her in the SZ and cover most of what you wanted to do for your pod. If you wanted to avoid the central lava, the sides were also a nightmare to develop as there were very few ways to develop your army to route the opponent without taking only ever taking low ground the whole way and the ups and downs on the side made for very difficult movement. some of my melee games consisted of each side setting up on each side of the lava and just kinda waiting it out a bit until the new round to try and jump up and assault the other side...but if you did...it was so easy to just lock your opponent on lava while you had the Shadow. One of my matchups against NecroBlade was just me sitting knights on the Shadow while he tried to punch through with Romans while sitting on lava. He couldn't do it and so burned at the end of the round. Just overall, a tough map where you felt like you were fighting the map as much as your opponent which made for games where me and my opponent were both not having a great time.

Percolator - Pulls very left for melee in order to utilize all the jungle for development. I didn't develop to the right very much on this map...even with the ruin, as the ruin just kinda got in the way moreso than helping the advance. Lateral movement is tough on this one and I agree removing 1 or both central water hexes would do a lot for helping with that.

Desolation - Felt a little big, but not by much. I liked it more than I thought I would, and my games were pretty “normal” ie nothing glaring stood out. The only thing I really didn’t like was the weird swamp water that splits the start zone.

Aeon - Having played on it ALOT as well this weekend, it solidified for me how awesome this map really is. Never a bad game on it and I always felt like the map was “on my side” when it came to strategic moves ie even if my opponent had better position, I felt like I could still make it a fair fight by utilizing other map features.

Bad Moon Rising - Never been super crazy about this map, but it was fine. It’s one of the OGs and so far has stood the test of time.
 
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Some thoughts on the maps from ScapeCon.

Wingspan: I won on this map, I lost on this map, and it was my favorite of the weekend. The jungle at the edges gives good cover to development and glyph approaches, having the max height with three hexes and nearby medium height was sufficient to challenge it. The shadow plus jungle combo in the center works well.

Odin Wept was a challenging map, and I agree with Sir Heroscape that it felt like you were fighting the map as much as your opponent. In particular, I felt like the map was difficult for double spacers, particularly ones without flying. It was difficult to get across to the other side as engaged figures made it easy to get congested. Most engagements took place in the 9 hexes or so between the three hex outcrops/glacier and central glacier. I would consider shifting the position of those to reduce the podding in that area by the SZ and offer some wider paths to move around the central glacier. I also noticed this was one of the few (maybe only) maps from this weekend where there wasn't a space that had height on the glyph spot and nothing higher next to it.

Percolator was a nice map, I enjoyed playing on it. The central water was a feature in my mind that made you think about positioning a bit more, and the glyph placement was great - not so far out of the action that you could just sit on it with no threat, but close to good development spots and at relative height. The ruin and jungle placement was also nice to aid development, and the central flat rock area looks good aesthetically and with some height spots and ruins nearby made for interesting movement. Opposite to Sir Heroscape, I mainly developed to the right not left.

Blackridge played pretty well, although I do have some notes. LOS was a challenge to establish on this map, but it makes sense because of how short and wide it is. I felt like contesting an opponent who pulled left could only really happen from the right, as the road on the left took a fairly circuitous path. And with the climb needed with no jungle, it felt very vulnerable. I liked the opposing three hex heights boarding the road, and didn't feel like that single hex road height spot was as problematic as others, although Guilty did ream me from that spot.

Desolation played pretty well as well, but it felt a bit too big. I think that may have also emphasized the distance between the two sections of your own SZ.

Aeon - solid map. Didn't play on it too much, but liked it both times (a win and a loss)
 
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