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The Book of Rogue
- Thread starter SirGalahad
- Start date
Character Bio - A teenage runaway from the Mississippi bayou, Anna Marie is taken in by Mystique and raised as her daughter. She learns of her powers by kissing her first love, which puts him into a coma. Rogue joins the Brotherhood of Mutants with Mystique and eventaully absorbs Ms. Marvel's powers, which damages Rogue's psyche to the point of coming to Charles Xavier for help.
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
Re: Rogue - DESIGN PHASE
Instead of giving permission to move the marker around from any card to any other card, you probably want to give permission to take it from a card it has already been placed on; and to do so directly in context of the marker's normal method of placement. Then you get the clarification you want, with no unintended extra capabilities.
Though it doesn't look it due to the boldfacing, this approach is shorter, too.
Now, on to POWER TRANSFER. This special power starts out with an undefined reference to a "chosen figure." Each special power is supposed to be self-contained, so this really should not be trying to refer to the "chosen" figure from a different special power. Furthermore, unless I am mistaken, the shelf life of the word "chosen" has never lasted past the current invocation of a special power, but in this case it's trying to stretch itself back to something that was "chosen" multiple turns ago.
I wonder if you really just mean to reference the marker whenever it is on any Army Card except this one? I suppose POWER TRANSFER could just begin with "While your Drain Marker is on another figure’s card," but that doesn't really hold up well for the later references in the paragraph. So, perhaps referring to the other figure as the drained figure (instead of "chosen") might do the trick.
Also, the sentence structure around the borrowed use of the attack number, defense number, and special powers is a bit rough. If you want to consider the "drained figure" approach, this also provides an opportunity to smooth the structure for readability.
As I was composing this message, I suddenly realized something else. Rogue uses the other card's numbers instead of her own, but uses its special powers in addition to her own. This is probably a good thing to be explicit about, since some players might think everything comes over in a dominant fashion.
Finally, there's a weird unintended self-reference here. POWER TRANSFER is, itself, a "special power [that] refers to the chosen figure or the chosen figure’s card" — thus, technically, POWER TRANSFER must now refer to Rogue instead of referring to her victim, by its own rules. (Were this computer software, we'd have something akin to an infinite loop or a null pointer reference here.
) This can be addressed by focusing the effect on that card's special powers, rather than all special powers in general.
So those suggestions would look like this:
Or, just go for the short version; seems clear enough to me:
I have to agree with SirGalahad: this does not read the way you intend it to work. Obviously I'm a few years late to the discussion, but as written this definitely reads like blanket permission to move the marker around wherever you like (it feels especially emphatic and global because of the repeated use of the word any).
Instead of giving permission to move the marker around from any card to any other card, you probably want to give permission to take it from a card it has already been placed on; and to do so directly in context of the marker's normal method of placement. Then you get the clarification you want, with no unintended extra capabilities.
DRAINING TOUCH
Start the game with 1 black Drain Marker. Instead of attacking, you may choose an adjacent figure that is not an Android or a destructible object. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 11 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound, and you may place your Drain Marker on the chosen figure’s Army Card if it is a Unique Hero. The Drain Marker can be moved from any Army Card to any other Army Card and, if that figure is a Unique Hero, you may place your Drain Marker on its Army Card (removing the Drain Marker from its previous Army Card, if any). At the end of the round or when Rogue is destroyed, remove your Drain Marker from the chosen figure’s card.
Start the game with 1 black Drain Marker. Instead of attacking, you may choose an adjacent figure that is not an Android or a destructible object. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 11 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound
Though it doesn't look it due to the boldfacing, this approach is shorter, too.
Now, on to POWER TRANSFER. This special power starts out with an undefined reference to a "chosen figure." Each special power is supposed to be self-contained, so this really should not be trying to refer to the "chosen" figure from a different special power. Furthermore, unless I am mistaken, the shelf life of the word "chosen" has never lasted past the current invocation of a special power, but in this case it's trying to stretch itself back to something that was "chosen" multiple turns ago.
I wonder if you really just mean to reference the marker whenever it is on any Army Card except this one? I suppose POWER TRANSFER could just begin with "While your Drain Marker is on another figure’s card," but that doesn't really hold up well for the later references in the paragraph. So, perhaps referring to the other figure as the drained figure (instead of "chosen") might do the trick.
Also, the sentence structure around the borrowed use of the attack number, defense number, and special powers is a bit rough. If you want to consider the "drained figure" approach, this also provides an opportunity to smooth the structure for readability.
As I was composing this message, I suddenly realized something else. Rogue uses the other card's numbers instead of her own, but uses its special powers in addition to her own. This is probably a good thing to be explicit about, since some players might think everything comes over in a dominant fashion.
Finally, there's a weird unintended self-reference here. POWER TRANSFER is, itself, a "special power [that] refers to the chosen figure or the chosen figure’s card" — thus, technically, POWER TRANSFER must now refer to Rogue instead of referring to her victim, by its own rules. (Were this computer software, we'd have something akin to an infinite loop or a null pointer reference here.
) This can be addressed by focusing the effect on that card's special powers, rather than all special powers in general.So those suggestions would look like this:
POWER TRANSFER
While your Drain Marker is on a drained figure’s card, Rogue must use that card's Attack and Defense numbers in place of her own and may use any of its special powerson that card in addition to her own. If any of its special powers refers to the drained figure or the drained figure’s card, they refers to Rogue or Rogue’s card instead. A drained figure that has a Drain Marker on its card may not use any special powers on its card.
While your Drain Marker is on a drained figure’s card, Rogue must use that card's Attack and Defense numbers in place of her own and may use any of its special powers
Or, just go for the short version; seems clear enough to me:
POWER TRANSFER
While your Drain Marker is on another figure’s card, Rogue must use that card's Attack and Defense numbers in place of her own and may use any of its special powers in addition to her own. If any of its special powers refer to that figure or that figure’s card, they refer to Rogue or Rogue’s card instead. That figure may not use any special powers on its card.
While your Drain Marker is on another figure’s card, Rogue must use that card's Attack and Defense numbers in place of her own and may use any of its special powers in addition to her own. If any of its special powers refer to that figure or that figure’s card, they refer to Rogue or Rogue’s card instead. That figure may not use any special powers on its card.
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Quick rules question on Rogue: I think I know the answer here, but I'm working on a design with a similar power-copying deal and I want to confirm.
If you've got Rogue and Destiny in the same army, and Rogue drains an opponent's figure that has a d20 power, will she receive Destiny's d20 boost when she uses that power? My interpretation is no, because Destiny's Probability Precognition states "When you roll the 20-sided die for a special power on an Army Card you control...", and the special power is in fact on the army card of an opponent's figure.
The interpretation seems straightforward to me, but I could see it being argued that you're using Power Transfer when you roll the d20, so she should receive any bonus from Destiny. Also, kind of a weird case, but that first interpretation would mean that if she drained another figure that you control, she actually would receive the bonus.
(Probably not a big deal, since wounding/disabling your own figure for the round isn't a great trade-off for a d20-boosted Rogue. Might have some application in the case of non-Mutants with strong d20 powers that you want to boost, though)
If you've got Rogue and Destiny in the same army, and Rogue drains an opponent's figure that has a d20 power, will she receive Destiny's d20 boost when she uses that power? My interpretation is no, because Destiny's Probability Precognition states "When you roll the 20-sided die for a special power on an Army Card you control...", and the special power is in fact on the army card of an opponent's figure.
The interpretation seems straightforward to me, but I could see it being argued that you're using Power Transfer when you roll the d20, so she should receive any bonus from Destiny. Also, kind of a weird case, but that first interpretation would mean that if she drained another figure that you control, she actually would receive the bonus.
(Probably not a big deal, since wounding/disabling your own figure for the round isn't a great trade-off for a d20-boosted Rogue. Might have some application in the case of non-Mutants with strong d20 powers that you want to boost, though)
Arkham
C3G Con Champ 2021 and 2022!
The only thing I could mention that might counter what you just said, is that it states "any power that refers to that figures card, refers to Rogue's card instead". So it's as if it is on Rogue's card when she is draining them. Just not literally, but it's treated as if the powers are indeed on her card while the marker is on theirs.
TrollBrute
Who ISN'T One of My Brothers??
I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think your interpretation is correct. That may not have been the intended theme, but that's how the mechanics seem to work to me.
@Just_a_Bill, I missed it earlier, but those look like good wording changes to me.
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
Thanks. Please note that I just revised my suggestions to say "
TrollBrute
Who ISN'T One of My Brothers??
After some discussion inside the Sanctum, I Propose we update Rogue with the following:
@johnny139-
@Karat-
@quozl-
@SirGalahad-
@Viegon-
@A3n-
@johnny139-
@Karat-
@quozl-
@SirGalahad-
@Viegon-
yea
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
I see that the Sanctum has added further improvements beyond my suggestions; great work. You've made some very nice (and sometimes subtle) refinements and it's obvious you've put some TLC into this while you had it back on the workbench. So here's a non-voting-yet-appreciative thumb:
.
TrollBrute
Who ISN'T One of My Brothers??
Which means this passes and is ready for update.
I played an army with Rogue yesterday in a tournament and I had problems making her work.
My big problem was with the economy of using her. It costs an order marker to buy a 50% chance of getting a different figures special powers for a maximum of two active turns and up to three passive turns (assuming 1v1) and negating powers for up to three opponent turns. That just doesn't add up - especially if it misses. I felt like it could only be useful if it hit in the first turn and all three markers were on her.
The most success she had was battling Dark Phoenix - she stole her powers twice, but the stat trade was negligible (+1 defense). Rogue was then equipped with a much more powerful set of abilities, but offensively, she didn't gain much (Dark Phoenix was the only opponent in range). It felt like it might have been the wrong decision to forego the attack of 6 for the chance to Drain.
Then I theoryscaped a bit and I can't convince myself that it's worth trying to drain - giving up an attack of 6 (opportunity cost), copying at the best roughly equal stats of attack and defense, having one fewer turn for the benefit of two turns with special abilities, and at the 50% risk of having a completely useless turn. UNLESS the 50% of an auto wound was really worth it, I think I'll stick to just beating people up.
My big problem was with the economy of using her. It costs an order marker to buy a 50% chance of getting a different figures special powers for a maximum of two active turns and up to three passive turns (assuming 1v1) and negating powers for up to three opponent turns. That just doesn't add up - especially if it misses. I felt like it could only be useful if it hit in the first turn and all three markers were on her.
The most success she had was battling Dark Phoenix - she stole her powers twice, but the stat trade was negligible (+1 defense). Rogue was then equipped with a much more powerful set of abilities, but offensively, she didn't gain much (Dark Phoenix was the only opponent in range). It felt like it might have been the wrong decision to forego the attack of 6 for the chance to Drain.
Then I theoryscaped a bit and I can't convince myself that it's worth trying to drain - giving up an attack of 6 (opportunity cost), copying at the best roughly equal stats of attack and defense, having one fewer turn for the benefit of two turns with special abilities, and at the 50% risk of having a completely useless turn. UNLESS the 50% of an auto wound was really worth it, I think I'll stick to just beating people up.
We agreed with you and updated her in 2.0. She works so much better and is actually worth her points now. The 2.0 cards have made so many improvements to so many cards like her, I really recommend checking out C3G 2.0. It's a massive upgrade. Same game with improved wording/terms and a couple of rules.
Yup, that would work.
2.0 looks REALLY good, but I have quite a few figures that have Legacy Cards that don't have 2.0 cards yet. And I'm teaching 2nd graders who are learning English as a second language and the complexity on 2.0 cleans up a lot of the unclarity of the original HeroScape system, but is a lot more technical.
2.0 looks REALLY good, but I have quite a few figures that have Legacy Cards that don't have 2.0 cards yet. And I'm teaching 2nd graders who are learning English as a second language and the complexity on 2.0 cleans up a lot of the unclarity of the original HeroScape system, but is a lot more technical.
