Politics, Religion, and Morality

[kolakoski]

Well met!

The existence of the billionaire class is obscene. Saying that there is not enough money to provide healthcare and a decent standard of living for everyone is unacceptable to me.

"The courts have corrected the abuse of due process and the Constitution is being followed." Untrue. ICE is kidnapping people off the streets and putting them in cages, and defying and arresting those, including Senators, who seek to inspect their premises or hold them accountable - all without due process; that is, no asylum hearings or trials. Countless pictures and videos are such that, as my sister said when I sent them to her, once seen cannot be unseen.

"People make choices regarding medical treatment and payment just like they make choices for everything else they buy or don't buy." Not if they have no money. Not if, even working more than one job, they barely have enough money to pay their rent, and their choices are between food and healthcare. People on Social Security even with Medicare cannot afford their copays for physical therapy and specialist visits. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[HolyDiver]

"People make choices regarding medical treatment and payment just like they make choices for everything else they buy or don't buy." Not if they have no money. Not if, even working more than one job, they barely have enough money to pay their rent, and their choices are between food and healthcare. People on Social Security even with Medicare cannot afford their copays for physical therapy and specialist visits. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

That's a beautiful quote, one I hadn't heard before. I had to look it up, and that whole speech is a powerful, worthy read.

The Chance for Peace - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

 

[wriggz]

Admin speaking: let's also not say things like "bad mouth" and "disingenuous".

Keep the posts about ideas, not each other.

Thank you.

Fixed

 

[wriggz]

Well met!

The existence of the billionaire class is obscene. Saying that there is not enough money to provide healthcare and a decent standard of living for everyone is unacceptable to me.

"The courts have corrected the abuse of due process and the Constitution is being followed." Untrue. ICE is kidnapping people off the streets and putting them in cages, and defying and arresting those, including Senators, who seek to inspect their premises or hold them accountable - all without due process; that is, no asylum hearings or trials. Countless pictures and videos are such that, as my sister said when I sent them to her, once seen cannot be unseen.

"People make choices regarding medical treatment and payment just like they make choices for everything else they buy or don't buy." Not if they have no money. Not if, even working more than one job, they barely have enough money to pay their rent, and their choices are between food and healthcare. People on Social Security even with Medicare cannot afford their copays for physical therapy and specialist visits. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

I really appreciate that quote, especially in light of 5% of gdp military spending targets at NATO. 5%. How many diseases could be eliminated, would hunger even be a thing, imagine what could be. Europe is re arming just because of Putin, spending the future and ignoring suffering, because guns are an easy answer.

We had progressed so far. The world was a safer place then ever before, with local conflicts, small fires on a grand stage. We had done it. The world went mad like there was something in the COVID vaccine, Ukraine, Gaza, Iran, India and Pakistan. Comments about Greenland and Panama seem more and more realistic. l fully expect China to invade Taiwan.

 

[Sushiscape3_0]

That's a beautiful quote, one I hadn't heard before. I had to look it up, and that whole speech is a powerful, worthy read.

The Chance for Peace - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

I'm Going to stay out of this discussion futher, but I'll second that I think this quote is beautiful and should be more applied by all people on all sides of every issue.

 

[Lazy Orang]

As to your numbered statements
1. I did not realize there were links in your post (I am fairly technologically incompetent). As to the first article, it's the same story from when Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980 -- everyone was going to leave and almost no one did. There is no en masse movement of people leaving. A lot of whiners saying they are thinking about it. As for the second, another whiner claiming Trump is a fascist.

I find it strange that someone so vocal in praising their nation protecting the right to free speech then refers to people who disagree with him as whiners. Surely it is better to listen to their arguments on an individual basis and discuss their merit rather than slap a derogatory label on them so that they can be ignored?

As to the third, child rapists should be in jail.

I am glad we agree on this, but that was not my point - I would hope that this would never be in debate, certainly not on this forum. Rather, my point was in reply to your referring to the US as the greatest country on Earth - isn't that claim contradicted by the fact that young girls can legally be forced to marry their abusers, a practice that doesn't exist in practically any other Western democracy (certainly not in the UK)?

3. The courts have corrected the abuse of due process and the Constitution is being followed.

As Kolakoski said, this is provably false - I won't reiterate what he's already said, but I will make an additional point. You claim Trump isn't a fascist, and yet he has been complicit in the circumvention of due process to illegally incarcerate individuals and ship them to off-shore detention facilities. That, at minimum, displays authoritarianism with a distinct disdain for law, due process and human rights - two traits which, along with ultra-nationalism (a trait even Trump's biggest fans will likely agree his politics possess - it's one of the reasons they like him, after all) make up some of the key hallmarks of fascist ideology. Even if you want to quibble over semantics, it seems impossible to deny that he's, at minimum, uncomfortably close.

4. People make choices regarding medical treatment and payment just like they make choices for everything else they buy or don't buy. Low income Americans are covered by Medicaid and their ambulance rides are paid for. Health care in Canada and the UK leaves much to be desired.

I'm not going to pretend the NHS is perfect - it has plenty of problems, largely as a result of over a decade of neglect by successive Tory governments - but, fundamentally, when you need it, it's there for you, no question about money. If it is an emergency, they'll see you that day, and you will be treated. In other cases, queues can be long, but it's not as though private healthcare doesn't exist in the UK - if you want to pay to see a doctor faster, you can, you still have the choice, but you'll never be put in a position where your bank account is what stands between you and medical treatment. I am supremely grateful for that, and find the idea of living in a country where that isn't regarded as a basic right terrifying, as do many other people, American and non-American alike.

You apparently missed my statement about other countries free riding on American taxpayers for their costs of defense. Easy to spend money on social welfare programs if you don't have to spend it on defense.

I didn't miss your statement - I had limited time and felt other things were more pressing to reply to. Speaking of this, however, it is true that the USA has the world's highest military spending, but it's not as though other nations are undefended. The UK has nuclear weapons, and a fully functional army, navy and airforce - we've never been slack in military spending, and military spending in Europe has only increased since Putin's invasion of Ukraine, and, with that, we still manage to maintain better social programs and longer life expectancy (and I'm not speaking out of a sense of patriotism here - I have none, I'm well aware of the UK's many problems and don't even like it much of the time, but credit where credit's due). Is our army as big as yours? No, of course not - we're a fraction of your size, you could fit the whole of the British Isles (including the Republic of Ireland) in Texas and still find room for Portugal - but, again, we're only one nation in Europe, all of which have been rearming recently (particularly given the increasing impression that Trump can't be relied upon to oppose Putin), and none of which have had to sacrifice healthcare to do so.
The United States isn't Gondor - it's not a fortress nation holding the evils of the world at bay. Since the nuclear age, highly developed nations have been relatively safe from invasion, since even more powerful militaries don't want to provoke a nuclear strike. The main issue in terms of national defence for highly developed nations in the 21st century is preventing terrorism rather than invasion, an area where large militaries are an insignificant factor next to intelligence, domestic law enforcement and international cooperation.

And in typical liberal fashion, you play the racist card.

I would very much appreciate it if you didn't resort to ad hominem arguments - it's not very respectful towards the person you're conversing with, and if your argument is strong, it's unnecessary.

 

[Dragon Ruler]

I find it strange that someone so vocal in praising their nation protecting the right to free speech then refers to people who disagree with him as whiners. Surely it is better to listen to their arguments on an individual basis and discuss their merit rather than slap a derogatory label on them so that they can be ignored?

I am glad we agree on this, but that was not my point - I would hope that this would never be in debate, certainly not on this forum. Rather, my point was in reply to your referring to the US as the greatest country on Earth - isn't that claim contradicted by the fact that young girls can legally be forced to marry their abusers, a practice that doesn't exist in practically any other Western democracy (certainly not in the UK)?

As Kolakoski said, this is provably false - I won't reiterate what he's already said, but I will make an additional point. You claim Trump isn't a fascist, and yet he has been complicit in the circumvention of due process to illegally incarcerate individuals and ship them to off-shore detention facilities. That, at minimum, displays authoritarianism with a distinct disdain for law, due process and human rights - two traits which, along with ultra-nationalism (a trait even Trump's biggest fans will likely agree his politics possess - it's one of the reasons they like him, after all) make up some of the key hallmarks of fascist ideology. Even if you want to quibble over semantics, it seems impossible to deny that he's, at minimum, uncomfortably close.

I'm not going to pretend the NHS is perfect - it has plenty of problems, largely as a result of over a decade of neglect by successive Tory governments - but, fundamentally, when you need it, it's there for you, no question about money. If it is an emergency, they'll see you that day, and you will be treated. In other cases, queues can be long, but it's not as though private healthcare doesn't exist in the UK - if you want to pay to see a doctor faster, you can, you still have the choice, but you'll never be put in a position where your bank account is what stands between you and medical treatment. I am supremely grateful for that, and find the idea of living in a country where that isn't regarded as a basic right terrifying, as do many other people, American and non-American alike.

I didn't miss your statement - I had limited time and felt other things were more pressing to reply to. Speaking of this, however, it is true that the USA has the world's highest military spending, but it's not as though other nations are undefended. The UK has nuclear weapons, and a fully functional army, navy and airforce - we've never been slack in military spending, and military spending in Europe has only increased since Putin's invasion of Ukraine, and, with that, we still manage to maintain better social programs and longer life expectancy (and I'm not speaking out of a sense of patriotism here - I have none, I'm well aware of the UK's many problems and don't even like it much of the time, but credit where credit's due). Is our army as big as yours? No, of course not - we're a fraction of your size, you could fit the whole of the British Isles (including the Republic of Ireland) in Texas and still find room for Portugal - but, again, we're only one nation in Europe, all of which have been rearming recently (particularly given the increasing impression that Trump can't be relied upon to oppose Putin), and none of which have had to sacrifice healthcare to do so.
The United States isn't Gondor - it's not a fortress nation holding the evils of the world at bay. Since the nuclear age, highly developed nations have been relatively safe from invasion, since even more powerful militaries don't want to provoke a nuclear strike. The main issue in terms of national defence for highly developed nations in the 21st century is preventing terrorism rather than invasion, an area where large militaries are an insignificant factor next to intelligence, domestic law enforcement and international cooperation.

I would very much appreciate it if you didn't resort to ad hominem arguments - it's not very respectful towards the person you're conversing with, and if your argument is strong, it's unnecessary.

I'm at SC now and will reply to these posts next week. However, I will address the following now, as I will not allow you to call me a racist and then claim that I am making ad hominem arguments. Here is what you posted (I don't know how to pull the quote other than copy and paste):

"Hmm... they're only more successful than the US due to a homogeneous population? That is disturbingly close to racist/ethnostate rhetoric, the argument that America's only fault is the presence of different races. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but in that case, please - you may wish to be more careful before repeating a far-right dogwhistle in future."

That's what you're doing with that quote. My reply was tame -- stating that you replied in typical liberal fashion -- not calling you a liberal (whether you are or not I neither know nor care). But liberals often do that -- call people racists when people point out certain facts.

 

[HolyDiver]

I'm at SC now and will reply to these posts next week. However, I will address the following now, as I will not allow you to call me a racist and then claim that I am making ad hominem arguments. Here is what you posted (I don't know how to pull the quote other than copy and paste):

"Hmm... they're only more successful than the US due to a homogeneous population? That is disturbingly close to racist/ethnostate rhetoric, the argument that America's only fault is the presence of different races. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but in that case, please - you may wish to be more careful before repeating a far-right dogwhistle in future."

That's what you're doing with that quote. My reply was tame -- stating that you replied in typical liberal fashion -- not calling you a liberal (whether you are or not I neither know nor care). But liberals often do that -- call people racists when people point out certain facts.

Where did Lazy call you racist? They called what you said "close to racist rhetoric" and then also said that they were "sure that wasn't your intention." They were explicitly attacking your argument, not you.

 

[quozl]

Admin speaking: Name-calling will be dealt with by the admins. Do not take it on yourself. Just report and move on.

Thank you.

 

[Sherman Davies]

Where did Lazy call you racist? They called what you said "close to racist rhetoric" and then also said that they were "sure that wasn't your intention." They were explicitly attacking your argument, not you.

Cut Dragon Ruler some slack - reading becomes more difficult in one's later years.

 

[wriggz]

That hit me where I live.

 

[IAmBatman]

Putting this thread on time out until we decide what to do with it

 

[IAmBatman]

Just for an update: currently there are no plans to reopen this thread. We're not officially banning the discussion of politics on Heroscapers (that'd be more Xorlof's call) but I think we want to strongly encourage you all to find other outlets more suited for deep political discussions than this miniature game fansite.