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Politics, Religion, and Morality
- Thread starter Ranior
- Start date
wriggz
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
As a complete outsider, American politics look like a zero sum WAR, not a path to improving the lives of the people.
I hope after tonight your politics become the typical mundanity of running a country that is working for the benefit of all (or at least not overtly hurting them) that is common in much of world politics. 95% of politics should be boring.
Good luck.
I hope after tonight your politics become the typical mundanity of running a country that is working for the benefit of all (or at least not overtly hurting them) that is common in much of world politics. 95% of politics should be boring.
Good luck.
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
It’s been years since politics was like that here.
In America, politics is treated as a sporting event and not a challenge to govern. I’ve traveled, a bit, and I don’t think other countries do it this way. Sometimes other countries behave brainlessly in *other* ways, but this is our way. It breaks my heart because it encourages bad seed and bad faith, but we’ve been doing it this way for decades.
What you just did is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
wriggz
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
Yeah, our current leader in Canada is showing the weight of years in office and various missteps and potential abuses of power.
His party will lose, but not in a scorched earth way. I have every confidence that those that replace him will strive to make mostly the right choices, just like I believe most of the governance over the last term has.
I think governance in most of the world is a combination of slow improvement of the peoples lives and an attempt to do no harm to those with no power. For example the government might not be doing enough for the homeless, but it's not presenting laws to further inprovrish them. Maybe more could be done to promote equality, but we are not pulling back hard won freedoms.
I sincerely hope that your new government continues this progress, or at the very least stagnates.
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
Manage your hopes and expectations. In other words, despair would not be completely out of place.
wriggz
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
It is worth noting the machinery of your government it hard to totally destroy. Stacked supreme court and gerrymandering not withstanding, the changing of cultural norms will hopefully continue to march on.
There is also the urbanification of many states including Texas, where it is harder to avoid expanding your view. Harder to be racist, homophobic or sexist when you ride the rainbow bus and start seeing the other as humans.
As twain said best thing for bigotry is travel, and when you are in a city everyday is travel. Education continues to improve, with kids having access to the world off information. I believe the future will improve and the better angels will win out in the end.
At the very least large companies have crazy control over your country and hatred is generally bad for business and they can't let the poor get too poor or no one can afford an iPhone.
Well said, wriggz.
Dad_Scaper, I understand feeling some despair right now. I'm sure all of us who oppose the MAGA movement are feeling that to some degree or other. But we have to remember that wallowing in it will do us no good for the struggle ahead, nor will it help us to better understand how and why this happened. I read a piece on Vox that outlines what might lie ahead, as well as what might be the things that keep the American democratic experiment alive. It says things better than I ever could.
Dad_Scaper, I understand feeling some despair right now. I'm sure all of us who oppose the MAGA movement are feeling that to some degree or other. But we have to remember that wallowing in it will do us no good for the struggle ahead, nor will it help us to better understand how and why this happened. I read a piece on Vox that outlines what might lie ahead, as well as what might be the things that keep the American democratic experiment alive. It says things better than I ever could.
It's from What If? issue #44: What If Captain America Were Not Revived Until Today?, published in, I kid you not, 1984.
Democracy is threatened if there is no election held in 2028, or even 2026.
Alright.
And what have Trump and Vance said or done that would instill such a fear?
Are Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. fascists?
Trump holds incredible respect for the office of the Presidency, as seen most recently in the first 30 minutes of his Joe Rogan interview.
There are only two catalysts I can think of that could possibly prevent an ordinary election in 2028:
1. A leftist lunatic who thinks Trump is Hitler shoots him and actually kills him this time, potentially sparking a civil war.
2. The US defaults on its debt and a whole bunch of things collapse simultaneously.
But I haven't super thought through either scenario.
I do know that the debt ceiling suspension expires on Dec 31, and the Republicans in Congress have no reason to agree to any solution that extends beyond January 20th when the next Congress is sworn in and is majority Republican.
Or maybe when all the JFK assassination files are declassified all faith in the US government will fall apart. Who knows?
But when we do have an ordinary 2028 election, will you be willing to admit that your fears regarding Trump were unfounded?
And what have Trump and Vance said or done that would instill such a fear?
Are Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr. fascists?
Trump holds incredible respect for the office of the Presidency, as seen most recently in the first 30 minutes of his Joe Rogan interview.
There are only two catalysts I can think of that could possibly prevent an ordinary election in 2028:
1. A leftist lunatic who thinks Trump is Hitler shoots him and actually kills him this time, potentially sparking a civil war.
2. The US defaults on its debt and a whole bunch of things collapse simultaneously.
But I haven't super thought through either scenario.
I do know that the debt ceiling suspension expires on Dec 31, and the Republicans in Congress have no reason to agree to any solution that extends beyond January 20th when the next Congress is sworn in and is majority Republican.
Or maybe when all the JFK assassination files are declassified all faith in the US government will fall apart. Who knows?
But when we do have an ordinary 2028 election, will you be willing to admit that your fears regarding Trump were unfounded?
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Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
People had the opportunity to vote for a prosecutor and instead they stayed home, or voted for a criminal who said he’d be a dictator on Day One.
Well, we’ll see. I know the white supremacists and the Russians are happy, so at least someone is pleased.
Well, we’ll see. I know the white supremacists and the Russians are happy, so at least someone is pleased.
If you're referring to the case in New York and see the judge as anything other than a partisan hack, I don't know what to say to you.
He had a misdemeanor business records charge bumped to a felony because it was "faciltiting a felony", similar to how speeding away from a bank is a minor traffic citation normally, but is criminal violation if you're doing it as a bank robber's getaway driver.
But oddly, there was no felony ever charged regarding what underlying crime the alleged business record inconsistency was facilitating.
You think the Russians are happy? The folks who waited until Trump was out of office to pursue a military campaign against Ukraine? You need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.
He had a misdemeanor business records charge bumped to a felony because it was "faciltiting a felony", similar to how speeding away from a bank is a minor traffic citation normally, but is criminal violation if you're doing it as a bank robber's getaway driver.
But oddly, there was no felony ever charged regarding what underlying crime the alleged business record inconsistency was facilitating.
You think the Russians are happy? The folks who waited until Trump was out of office to pursue a military campaign against Ukraine? You need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.
To add onto this, it's not just that democracy is threatened if there's no election held in 2028; what really matters is whether future elections are fair, or whether they are elections in name only. Viktor Orban has transformed Hungary - nominally a democracy - into what the EU has called an "Electoral Autocracy," "a constitutional system in which elections occur, but" actual "respect for democratic norms and standards is absent," and a second Trump term can easily usher in something similar - or worse - in the U.S. without ever technically eliminating elections.
Unhinged Manchild
Active member
Allegedly, Trump said on day 1 "We're closing the border and we're drilling, drilling, drilling," Trump said. "After that, I'm not a dictator." Yeah guys, if closing & sealing country border and stopping the criminal invasion is "dictatorship", I'm with every dictator in my local area who want a country with protected borders.
Now, drumpf saying he wants to take our guns away and do the court trial later? Fuck no. THAT is a dictator jumping over my republic's constitution (and don't even get me started on the supreme clowns who think "the 2nd amendment allows for the federal gubmint to regulate the people's arms".)
I'm scared of what the orange man will do, but far less compared to the potential I saw in scamala. They're all destroying the country slowly.
Now, drumpf saying he wants to take our guns away and do the court trial later? Fuck no. THAT is a dictator jumping over my republic's constitution (and don't even get me started on the supreme clowns who think "the 2nd amendment allows for the federal gubmint to regulate the people's arms".)
I'm scared of what the orange man will do, but far less compared to the potential I saw in scamala. They're all destroying the country slowly.
wriggz
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
As mentioned it is interesting watching from an outside perspective. In Canada we typically get news from the independent CBC, national news from AP, reuters or the US big names. International news typicality takes first place then national, rarely regional. I have no idea how I would find out the local high school hockey scores, whereas when I visited the states it seemed high school football results were on the local news.
Never once was gun control on our news. Your kids are being attacked every year in schools and that is not part of the national discussion. That's weird and proof ain't no one taking your guns.
Immigration seemed to take centre stage, which again is weird since it's not like illegal immigrants are going into schools and killing kids - they seem to mostly keep there heads down and try to build a better life. Also it's not like the Dems would defund homeland security.
Then there was the abortion thing, which is an important bell weather, but it seems it is one of those issues falling to the states, though they tried that with slavery, and we see how that worked out.
I think the biggest issue is how the division between rich and poor is only growing. While I'm doubtful the Democrats would make significant progress, based on term one trumps republican party seems to be activily working to expand it. Regressive taxes and limiting social safety nets are hallmarks of his first term.
Finally I don't think I would want a president that is likey in the pocket of Putin - based on there previous relationship it seems unlikely that Putin does not have incriminating or embarrassing documents on trump. Trump seems to be the type that values his image over world security.
But the real question is why did someone with Russian ties who expanded the gap between rich and poor appeal to so many people. Is the news cycle, Internet echo chambers, attack adds and party loyalty so powerful? Or is Trump's message that convincing or appealing that the inconsistency don't matter. Has your education system fail you or is the tribalism too strong. Obviously there is some reason so many people want what trump is selling - it would be interesting to know why.
And seriously how are school shootings accepted as normal?
Never once was gun control on our news. Your kids are being attacked every year in schools and that is not part of the national discussion. That's weird and proof ain't no one taking your guns.
Immigration seemed to take centre stage, which again is weird since it's not like illegal immigrants are going into schools and killing kids - they seem to mostly keep there heads down and try to build a better life. Also it's not like the Dems would defund homeland security.
Then there was the abortion thing, which is an important bell weather, but it seems it is one of those issues falling to the states, though they tried that with slavery, and we see how that worked out.
I think the biggest issue is how the division between rich and poor is only growing. While I'm doubtful the Democrats would make significant progress, based on term one trumps republican party seems to be activily working to expand it. Regressive taxes and limiting social safety nets are hallmarks of his first term.
Finally I don't think I would want a president that is likey in the pocket of Putin - based on there previous relationship it seems unlikely that Putin does not have incriminating or embarrassing documents on trump. Trump seems to be the type that values his image over world security.
But the real question is why did someone with Russian ties who expanded the gap between rich and poor appeal to so many people. Is the news cycle, Internet echo chambers, attack adds and party loyalty so powerful? Or is Trump's message that convincing or appealing that the inconsistency don't matter. Has your education system fail you or is the tribalism too strong. Obviously there is some reason so many people want what trump is selling - it would be interesting to know why.
And seriously how are school shootings accepted as normal?
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nyys
quoting myself - insanity beckons
It is 10000000000000000% not accepted and not normal. Our stooges in government won't work together to make some common sense laws because it might lose them votes. They do not care. Getting them out of office is just as difficult as you can see.
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
There are plenty who would be happy to work on common sense restrictions. We are held hostage on this point by some leaders on the right. Frankly I suspect their constituents would support it but the leaders don’t have the courage.
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
Here’s where we are, Wriggz.
One of the two candidates was a prosecutor and a career public servant, perfectly well qualified for the office of President of the United States.
The other candidate is literally a criminal, with a long track record of fraud, bankruptcies, infidelity, and lying.
But half of this country, more or less, gets is “news” from social media and infotainment sources, and is told over and over that (1) there is a culture war and they are in danger, (2) the enemy is powerful, and (3) the enemy is inferior. It’s an old playbook but it works so why not.
So anyway. They listen to their idiotic news sources and they tell themselves dumb stuff like “the judge presiding over the trial was a political hack.” It’s stupid. But this is the world we are living in now.
One of the two candidates was a prosecutor and a career public servant, perfectly well qualified for the office of President of the United States.
The other candidate is literally a criminal, with a long track record of fraud, bankruptcies, infidelity, and lying.
But half of this country, more or less, gets is “news” from social media and infotainment sources, and is told over and over that (1) there is a culture war and they are in danger, (2) the enemy is powerful, and (3) the enemy is inferior. It’s an old playbook but it works so why not.
So anyway. They listen to their idiotic news sources and they tell themselves dumb stuff like “the judge presiding over the trial was a political hack.” It’s stupid. But this is the world we are living in now.
Unhinged Manchild
Active member
It's.... Interesting being within this country too
I don't trust giant media outlets. I prefer small, local news because they ought to be better held accountable by the local people, and also hopefully not bought out by the wealthy/political class.
On the modern great theft of personal self-defense; people going behind the back of the gubmint scam to get a gun, walk into a "gun free" zone (LOL like a sign can prevent a determined murderer), and going on a killing spree has very little to do with the tyrannical facade which are the authoritarians limiting my right to bear arms as enshrined in the constitution, alluded to in the dec of independence, and attested to throughout many of the teachings in history books regarding the founding fellows' beliefs. Hell, just history in general for mankind. Self defense is a natural right, not something anyone needs permission from gubmint to do. In communist NY I can't get a pistol permit despite my perfectly clean record (my worst "crime" is for having tinted windows. I'm sorry, WHERE is the VICTIM of this HEINOUS crime? Let him take me to trial as noted in the 6th amendment and show all of us the damages I have inflicted upon him. Oml this justice system is cringe.) This is why permits are totally ineffective; it disarms lawful persons while allowing criminals to go on killing sprees. Let alone that it's just another slow and useless gubmint institution (looking at you, DMV.)
I certainly see enough stories online of criminal invaders raping and/or killing young children, not directly in schools. In the age of internet and AI, I'm not sure what is true, though. That aside, there's WAY TOO MANY other issues that stem from us supporting these invaders. Country borders exist for a reason - to protect those inside, maintain homeostasis. One utilizes their home just the same, and we certainly don't knowingly allow stranger criminals to enter and reside within. There's also the issue of "free" handouts (spoiler alert: it's money taken from hard working, lawful citizens like us that's given to these criminals.) I've heard from my boys in Texas about how gubmint is handing TAX PAYER MONEY over to the invaders. Then, we still pay for education and other public services which support these criminals, and it puts even more stress on those systems as a whole. Is this not a zero-sum game? Resources don't just manifest out of thin air. I hear this is all to the tune of billions of dollars. Why are we facilitating the invasion of our own country with the money & labor of our own people?
I'm interested in the study of basic human rights. I've had some good discussions about abortion. Even strictly for America, the constitution mentions persons born/naturalized in the US... sooo does the unborn, fertilized egg have rights? Hmmm. But, I also believe that people consent to the possibility of pregnancy when they have sex, although there's a ton of nuance that I'm leaving out, and really for one major reason: I DO NOT want to pay for some useless ass gubmint agency to try and enforce any sort of pro-life law, thus I lean pro-choice, let the free peoples decide for themselves. When we need to reproduce to continue to survive, we will do so as a society. I hope.
The increasing division of rich and poor is very apparent. I personally believe both "red & blue" sides are responsible, consider the money printing especially since the theft that was 2020, but also the disgusting lobbying that we all know corporations are pulling. I feel that a very very miniscule number of leaders actually represent the people and liberty. Drumpf, potatus, and scamala do not fall into that tiny number of people. Stop voting for these useless eaters, please. I already know I'll die huffing copium
I don't have much to say on the Russia-orange man thing. I doubt any of us have any inkling of the truth on that matter. Frankly, most of that seems purely fabricated, but look how the ukraine was money laundering scam has gone over this last 4 years. Russia seemed to get real ballsy when there wasn't an orange nutjob in office. And our leader-warmongers were happy to rake in that cash with their friends.
School shootings should not be the norm, we need to eliminate the public indoctrination system that is destroying most of us at an intellectual and financial level. Industrialization is good in some ways, but industrialized school is an inhumane evil. This system is intentionally turning everyone into deflated little worker drones. Homeschool & stay strapped then the school shootings tank tremendously. Remember when schools had gun club?
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
Local tv news outlets are generally owned by a few media conglomerates and are not locally owned. They tend to lean conservative.
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My immediate concern is for my 21 year old twin daughters in college and my niece in college. As well as other women.
When guys in one of my daughter's lab are now emboldened to talk about women as objects. When the line "Your body, MY choice" is the new tag line women have to endure, it scares the crap out of them. The incel community is chomping at the bit to be able to have their wY with women.
Not to mention the health-care for women will decline further and put them at even more risk.
A lot of voters don't have those concerns, heck, many are thrilled by it.
Regarding Project 2025 not being a Trump thing. We'll see. If none of what's written in it come to fruition, then great. But if it starts to get implemented, then it is a Trump thing. Also, just because you may not be in the demographic that is affected, I doesn't mean it's still not hurting people.
Helping Ukraine is a good thing. See how having Russia take that country over has an affect down the road. We are sending mostly older stuff to them, as our bloated military machine likes to dispose of equipment for shiny new stuff all the time, in order to keep the military contractors fat and happy. We also make the munitions thay is sent to Ukraine, here in the US, so that is employing Americans.
We'll see how the tariffs work/not work. But for all the boasting about how great Trump is for the economy, I expect my cost of living to drop by 10% or more over the course of the next 4 years. Gas needs to be around the $2/gal mark. Thr cost of vehicles, utilities, groceries, insurance, prescriptions, etc all need to drop a good bit. Otherwise it's a big fail. One of the main reasons people said they voted for Trump is for the economy. They can't even afford groceries now and it was so much better under Trump previously. Ok, to that means to me, that without significant reduction in prices, he failed to deliver.
Sadly, Trump could have done the worst imaginable act to a child on stage at one of his rallys, and the crowd would cheer and his other followers would defend it.
When guys in one of my daughter's lab are now emboldened to talk about women as objects. When the line "Your body, MY choice" is the new tag line women have to endure, it scares the crap out of them. The incel community is chomping at the bit to be able to have their wY with women.
Not to mention the health-care for women will decline further and put them at even more risk.
A lot of voters don't have those concerns, heck, many are thrilled by it.
Regarding Project 2025 not being a Trump thing. We'll see. If none of what's written in it come to fruition, then great. But if it starts to get implemented, then it is a Trump thing. Also, just because you may not be in the demographic that is affected, I doesn't mean it's still not hurting people.
Helping Ukraine is a good thing. See how having Russia take that country over has an affect down the road. We are sending mostly older stuff to them, as our bloated military machine likes to dispose of equipment for shiny new stuff all the time, in order to keep the military contractors fat and happy. We also make the munitions thay is sent to Ukraine, here in the US, so that is employing Americans.
We'll see how the tariffs work/not work. But for all the boasting about how great Trump is for the economy, I expect my cost of living to drop by 10% or more over the course of the next 4 years. Gas needs to be around the $2/gal mark. Thr cost of vehicles, utilities, groceries, insurance, prescriptions, etc all need to drop a good bit. Otherwise it's a big fail. One of the main reasons people said they voted for Trump is for the economy. They can't even afford groceries now and it was so much better under Trump previously. Ok, to that means to me, that without significant reduction in prices, he failed to deliver.
Sadly, Trump could have done the worst imaginable act to a child on stage at one of his rallys, and the crowd would cheer and his other followers would defend it.
It's.... Interesting being within this country too
I don't trust giant media outlets. I prefer small, local news because they ought to be better held accountable by the local people, and also hopefully not bought out by the wealthy/political class.
On the modern great theft of personal self-defense; people going behind the back of the gubmint scam to get a gun, walk into a "gun free" zone (LOL like a sign can prevent a determined murderer), and going on a killing spree has very little to do with the tyrannical facade which are the authoritarians limiting my right to bear arms as enshrined in the constitution, alluded to in the dec of independence, and attested to throughout many of the teachings in history books regarding the founding fellows' beliefs. Hell, just history in general for mankind. Self defense is a natural right, not something anyone needs permission from gubmint to do. In communist NY I can't get a pistol permit despite my perfectly clean record (my worst "crime" is for having tinted windows. I'm sorry, WHERE is the VICTIM of this HEINOUS crime? Let him take me to trial as noted in the 6th amendment and show all of us the damages I have inflicted upon him. Oml this justice system is cringe.) This is why permits are totally ineffective; it disarms lawful persons while allowing criminals to go on killing sprees. Let alone that it's just another slow and useless gubmint institution (looking at you, DMV.)
I certainly see enough stories online of criminal invaders raping and/or killing young children, not directly in schools. In the age of internet and AI, I'm not sure what is true, though. That aside, there's WAY TOO MANY other issues that stem from us supporting these invaders. Country borders exist for a reason - to protect those inside, maintain homeostasis. One utilizes their home just the same, and we certainly don't knowingly allow stranger criminals to enter and reside within. There's also the issue of "free" handouts (spoiler alert: it's money taken from hard working, lawful citizens like us that's given to these criminals.) I've heard from my boys in Texas about how gubmint is handing TAX PAYER MONEY over to the invaders. Then, we still pay for education and other public services which support these criminals, and it puts even more stress on those systems as a whole. Is this not a zero-sum game? Resources don't just manifest out of thin air. I hear this is all to the tune of billions of dollars. Why are we facilitating the invasion of our own country with the money & labor of our own people?
I'm interested in the study of basic human rights. I've had some good discussions about abortion. Even strictly for America, the constitution mentions persons born/naturalized in the US... sooo does the unborn, fertilized egg have rights? Hmmm. But, I also believe that people consent to the possibility of pregnancy when they have sex, although there's a ton of nuance that I'm leaving out, and really for one major reason: I DO NOT want to pay for some useless ass gubmint agency to try and enforce any sort of pro-life law, thus I lean pro-choice, let the free peoples decide for themselves. When we need to reproduce to continue to survive, we will do so as a society. I hope.
The increasing division of rich and poor is very apparent. I personally believe both "red & blue" sides are responsible, consider the money printing especially since the theft that was 2020, but also the disgusting lobbying that we all know corporations are pulling. I feel that a very very miniscule number of leaders actually represent the people and liberty. Drumpf, potatus, and scamala do not fall into that tiny number of people. Stop voting for these useless eaters, please. I already know I'll die huffing copium
I don't have much to say on the Russia-orange man thing. I doubt any of us have any inkling of the truth on that matter. Frankly, most of that seems purely fabricated, but look how the ukraine was money laundering scam has gone over this last 4 years. Russia seemed to get real ballsy when there wasn't an orange nutjob in office. And our leader-warmongers were happy to rake in that cash with their friends.
School shootings should not be the norm, we need to eliminate the public indoctrination system that is destroying most of us at an intellectual and financial level. Industrialization is good in some ways, but industrialized school is an inhumane evil. This system is intentionally turning everyone into deflated little worker drones. Homeschool & stay strapped then the school shootings tank tremendously. Remember when schools had gun club?
None of my schools had gun clubs. And I went o 9 schools, including 3 high schools. I graduated in '85. Gun clubs were by no means a norm.
Regarding soft targets and people ignoring gun free zone signs. That is such a joke of an argument. There have always been soft targets but there hasn't always been the school shootings or mass shootings like there have been in recent history. People were absolutely not walking around schools, malls, airports etc with guns as if they were cowboys in the old western movies.
The NRA and the gun lobby has been pushing that stupid narrative. And obviously it's worked, because so many people have become obsessed with guns. And not just hunting rifles, shotguns and handguns. No, now people like to feel like an action movie star, having to have AR type weapons that have no real purpose other than killing a lot of people in short amounts of time. They are deadly toys that make people feel powerful. I actually think that some of these people do find school shootings the acceptable price to be paid in order for them to have more reason to have their deadly toy.
And when people bring up the 2nd Ammendment and that AR style weapons are what our forefathers intended (never mind the "well regulated" portion), then shouldn't everyone also be allowed to have fully automatic assault rifles and machine guns? Grenades, rocket launchers and anti-aircraft weapons as well. Have to be able to protect the property with land mines and claymores. Nothing wrong with having a suitcase nuke, just in case. People should also be blessed to buy large amounts of ingredients for making explosive, kind of like the stuff used in Oklahoma City. I mean, the 2nd Ammendment gives us the right to have all these things, right?
I'm going to call you out on this Dad_Scaper. You're missing the forest for a single tree.
U_M didn't specify local television news.
Local news can be TV, radio, newspaper, (including digital newspaper), student-run campus papers/radio, or even independent blog sites. He even specifically said that he
You latched onto U_M's opening paragraph (which even addressed your point by mentioning that he doesn't like corporately-owned 'local' outlets).
Most of the substance of his post is regarding the right to self-defense, which you completely skipped over.
I apologize if you just made a quick initial reply due to time constraints and intended to write more later.