Grey Waves' AoA-Inclusive Tier List

[Grey Waves]

I’ve considered doing a HS tier list for a few years now, but it always seemed a lot of work for something I’d post once and then only update 1 or 2 times thereafter (since at this point, we have a pretty good grasp on the ‘true’ power level of 90% of classic scape). However, the release of new units from Renegade/AoA (with the promise of more to come) finally provided the motivation necessary for me to sit down and actually make this thing.

A couple of quick notes:

• This tier list is assuming armies of 400-600 normal (non-Renegade) points with 12-24 figures on standard tournament maps.
• This list does not include VC. I may make a separate VC-inclusive tier list in the future, but I want these rankings to be something I can refer players to who have only previously played classic scape or those who have picked up the game during the Renegade era.
• I’ve colour-coded each unit by general so the list is a bit more visually interesting. I’ve tried to pick colours that will show up nicely whether you’re reading this on light or dark mode, but please do let us know if there’s a colour you’re struggling to make out.

I will be updating this list after each new wave is released (or for waves that are released in multiple parts, after each block or ‘sub-wave’ of units are on store shelves), as well as intermittently if I feel like my opinion on a unit (AoA or classic) has significantly changed in between wave releases. I also plan on adding a brief description to each unit in the future too; I have no definitive ETA for that at the moment though.

Without further adieu:

A+

Deathreavers
Major Q9
Marro Warriors
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV)

A
4th Massachusetts Line
10th Regiment of Foot
Fen Hydra
Grimnak
Heavy Gruts
Isamu
Knight Primus Adelbern
Knights of Weston
Krav Maga Agents
Marcu Esenwein
Marro Stingers
Me-Burq-Sa
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
Nilfheim
Sir Gilbert

A-
Airborne Elite
Alastair MacDirk
Arrow Gruts
Axegrinders of Burning Forge
Blade Gruts
Blastatrons
Braxas
Cyprien Esenwein
Darrak Ambershard
Death Chasers of Thesk
Eltahale
Festering Honor Guard
Fire Elemental
Gladiatrons
Glinerva the Kyrie Warrior
Greenscale Warriors
Kaemon Awa
Kurrok the Elementalist
Major Q10
Marcus Decimus Gallus
Mezzodemon Warmongers
Mimring
Mogrimm Forgehammer
Phantom Knights
Queen Maladrix the Conqueror
Roman Legionnaires

B+
Agent Skahen
Ashigaru Harquebus
Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
Black Wyrmling
Brave Arrow
Charos
Concan the Kyrie Warrior
Crixus
Dorim the Bulkhead Brawler
Eldgrim the Viking Champion
Ewashia, Master of Tides
Exiles of the Sundered Sea
Finn the Viking Champion
Frost Giant of Morh
Frostclaw Paladins
Goblin Cutters
Halushia, Scion of the Wild
Heirloom
Hellforge Mandukor
Horned Skull Brutes
Iron Lich Viscerot
Krug
Laglor
Major Q11
Marrden Hounds
Marrden Nagrubs
Marro Dividers
Marro Drones
Migol Ironwill
Minions of Utgar
Mohican River Tribe
Moltenclaw
Nakita Agents
Necrotech Wraithriders
Ne-Gok-Sa
Oathbound Legionnaires
Oathbound Phalanx
Ordo Borealis
Ornak
Red Wyrmling
Sacred Band
Samuel Brown
Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM)
Sg. Drake Alexander (AoA)
Sonya Esenwein
Swog Rider
Syvarris
Tornak
Tor-Kul-Na
Valguard
Venoc Vipers
Warriors of Ashra
Warforged Soldiers
Wing Commander Tuck Harrigan
Zetacron
Zelrig
Zombies of Morindan

B

Air Elemental
Ana Karithon
Arkmer
Aubrien Archers
Brunak
Capuan Gladiators
Chardris
Death Knights of Valkrill
Drow Chainfighter
Dumutef Guard
Estivara
Fyorlag Spiders
Fia Bonny the Void Siren
Guilty McCreech
Ice Troll Berserker
Jorhdawn
Kita the Springrunner
Knaves of the Silver Scimitar
Knight Irene
Kozuke Samurai
Kyntela Gwyn
Loviatak the Kyrie Warrior
MacDirk Warriors
Master of the Hunt
Microcorp Agents
Mielki the Kyrie Warrior
Ogre Pulverizer
Ogre Warhulk
Onshu the Welkineye
Otonashi
Parmenio
Protectors of Ullar
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (SotM)
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (AoA)
Sentinels of Jandar
Sgt. Drake Alexander-(RotV)
Sir Denrick
Sonlen (AoA)
Sonlen (SotM)
Spartacus
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
Tagawa Samurai
Tagawa Samurai Archers
Tandros Kreel
Tarn Viking Warriors
Theracus
Thorgrim the Viking Champion
Thyraxis Dragoon
Ulginesh
Venoc Warlord
Water Elemental
White Wyrmling
Wyvern

B-

Anubian Wolves
Armoc Vipers
Ashigaru Yari
Blue Wyrmling
Bok-Bur-Na
Deepwyrm Drow
Dzu-Teh
Earth Elemental
Emirroon
Evar Scarcarver
Granite Guardians
Iskra Esenwein
Izumi Samurai
James Murphy
Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
Kato Katsuro
Killian Vane III
Marro Hive
Misaerx the Kyrie Warrior
Morsbane
Omnicron Repulsors
Othkurik the Black Dragon
Quasatch Hunters
Raakchott, Steward of Death
Retiarius
Shiori (AoA)
Shurrak
Siege
Su-Bak-Na
Sujoah
Warden 816
Werewolf Lord
Wolves of Badru
Xenithrax the Vineweaver
Zettian Guards

C+
Admiral EJ-1M
Agent Carr
Brandis Skyhunter
Deathstalkers
Deathwalker 8000
Elite Onyx Vipers
Gorillinators
Greater Ice Elemental
Iron Golem
Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
Kumiko
Marro Drudge
Master Win Chiu Woo
Mika Connour
Mind Flayer Mastermind
Ninjas of the Northern Wind
Omnicron Snipers
Rhogar Dragonspine
Shaolin Monks
Sir Dupuis
Torin
Tul-Bak-Ra
Vorid Glide Stikers
Wo-Sa-Ga

C
Acolarh
Deathwalker 9000
Empress Kiova[/color]
Erevan Sunshadow
Feral Troll
Grok Riders
Hatamoto Taro
Jotun
Kee-Mo-Shi
Khosumet the Darklord
Kilkorax the Kyrie Warrior
Major X17
Obsidian Guards
Queen Qhyrion
Roman Archers
Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
Sharwin Wildborn
Sir Hawthorne
Templar Cavalry
The Einar Imperium
Xiamara the Kyrie Warrior

C-

Deadeye Dan
Dünd
Gurei-Oni
Moriko
Rechets of Bogdan
Runa
Sahuagin Raider
Shades of Bleakewoode
Shiori (SotM)
Sudema

D
Deathwalker 7000
Pelloth

 

[kolakoski]

Well met!
So . . . Glinerva is A- here. Matthias' A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings has her at C-. Looking forward to seeing how the other Rankings rate her.

 

[Foudzing]

Open post.
Sees Knights at A and Greenies at A-
Close post.

 

[Myriadite]

Open post.
Sees Knights at A and Greenies at A-
Close post.

In all fairness, the post is titled "Grey Waves' AoA-Inclusive Tier List".

I find it rather neat how most of the new stuff is very close in power level.

 

[Stoshy]

Open post.
Sees Knights at A and Greenies at A-
Close post.

Is this because you think they should be lower or higher? I genuinely can't tell because I've heard people say knights and Greenscales are broken and I've heard others say that all melee is bad.

 

[Foudzing]

Is this because you think they should be lower or higher? I genuinely can't tell because I've heard people say knights and Greenscales are broken and I've heard others say that all melee is bad.

Greenies should be higher or same rank as Knights.

Knights are heavily overrated in my opinion, first there is absolutely no real reason to run them over heavies and secondly nothing shows that they are better than other melee bonding squads such as Romans and Blades. I even think Blades and Romans are better than Knights in a lot of points/figure limit situations.

Meanwhile Greenies, while the Nilf+Rae+Greenies combo is quite expensive it's worth it, very beefy and highest damage per turn in the game, Nilf+ Greenies will always be a great option especially at 505pts+, where it's right up the top.
People claim Nilf is the OP figure not greenies but to me they really work together. Nilf just isn't that good at all without greenies, get engaged to easily by melee which makes him struggle vs rats and melee bonding. Greenies are also very good at tying up any shooter like Kravs or stingers that didn't get killed by Ice shards, Greenies are also very good at tying Q9 while Nilf does the damage, which is the reliant way of beating Q9 rats, something a build like Nilf+Rats cannot do. Nilf greenies is with Heavies (and maybe Laglor Kravs Q9 Rae build) the only army to have a balanced to positive machup vs Q9+rats no matter the version of the Q9 rat build.

 

[Grey Waves]

Greenies should be higher or same rank as Knights.

Knights are heavily overrated in my opinion, first there is absolutely no real reason to run them over heavies and secondly nothing shows that they are better than other melee bonding squads such as Romans and Blades. I even think Blades and Romans are better than Knights in a lot of points/figure limit situations.

Meanwhile Greenies, while the Nilf+Rae+Greenies combo is quite expensive it's worth it, very beefy and highest damage per turn in the game, Nilf+ Greenies will always be a great option especially at 505pts+, where it's right up the top.
People claim Nilf is the OP figure not greenies but to me they really work together. Nilf just isn't that good at all without greenies, get engaged to easily by melee which makes him struggle vs rats and melee bonding. Greenies are also very good at tying up any shooter like Kravs or stingers that didn't get killed by Ice shards, Greenies are also very good at tying Q9 while Nilf does the damage, which is the reliant way of beating Q9 rats, something a build like Nilf+Rats cannot do. Nilf greenies is with Heavies (and maybe Laglor Kravs Q9 Rae build) the only army to have a balanced to positive machup vs Q9+rats no matter the version of the Q9 rat build.

Re: knights - there are 3 key advantages knights have that justify them being A tier alongside heavies (despite the fact that heavies are better into rats, Greenscales, and many melee bonding squads). Firstly, KoW builds are effectively cheaper than Heavy Grut builds, since you're only paying 105 points for a support hero (Gilbert) rather than 170 points for Grimnak + Nerak. This gives you more points to play with so you can bring an extra squad of knights or some ranged support or something. The second advantage is better mobility - knights effectively have a base move of 6 thanks to Gilbert, and Jandar's Dispatch allows you to pull off some tricks that figures with actual base 6 move can't. The third advantage is that it's much easier to keep Gilbert alive than it is Grimnak, for a variety of reasons (Grimnak often finds himself at the front lines of your army in order to provide his Orc Defensive Enhancement, Sir Gilbert is a much smaller figure and so is easier to hide behind LoS blockers; Grimnak doesn't benefit from jungle or shadow...). These things combined mean that knights are noticeably better than heavies into ranged common squads, which justifies them being A tier even though there are a couple of top tier armies that heavies do better into.

Re: greenscales - don't think that just because I have greenscales at A- tier, it means I also think that the Nilf/Raelin/GSW build is A- tier. Nilf/Raelin/GSW is easily an A tier build, one of the best in the classic cheese meta - I just have greenscales at A- tier because, in and of themselves, greenscales are not that great imo. If we ignore their bonding heroes for a second, the GSWs are a 60 point, 3-man bonding squad who have 3 attack and 4 defence when they're within 2 spaces of their chosen hero. That's fine, but it's nothing amazing. The real strength of greenscale builds lies in the heroes they bond with, not the greenscales themselves - if Nilfheim didn't exist, you'd have a hard time arguing for the GSWs anywhere above B+ tier. Hence, I have greenscales at A- tier with Nilfheim above them at A tier (and Raelin above both of them at A+).

 

[Foudzing]

Firstly, KoW builds are effectively cheaper than Heavy Grut builds, since you're only paying 105 points for a support hero (Gilbert) rather than 170 points for Grimnak + Nerak. This gives you more points to play with so you can bring an extra squad of knights or some ranged support or something.

Okay but thing is Heavies beat knights even being 1 squad less. 3xHeavies Grimnak Nerak Isamu vs 4xKnights Gilbert I take Heavies thanks.
Also I am not a fan of "random" ranged support in melee bonding. Sure slamming Marros in will not hurt you much but it will not tilt a machup except very super polarized machups builds like Trons which imo don't have a place in bring the cheese.

I am very convinced that best possible melee builds are 95% of time: spam main squad + best "active bonder" the guy that will take most activations (Grimnak, Gilbert, MBS etc...) + support (Nerak, Raelin, MDG etc...) (+fillers) if you are going away from this imo your are making a "meta call" like for example adding Kravs if you think wtf will be very present, but this is weakening your army in a nutshell imo.

So yes this is true but imo not relevant at all since the best builds are without range support anyway.
Like there is not a single point/figure limit where knights are better than heavies, not a single one.

"The second advantage is better mobility - knights effectively have a base move of 6 thanks to Gilbert, and Jandar's Dispatch allows you to pull off some tricks that figures with actual base 6 move can't."

I agree Knights Gilbert that overall have better development than Heavies, due to multiples reasons, but it doesn't outweight the big lack in stats and DPS. Also disengage is a big deal while coward's reward isn't really.

"The third advantage is that it's much easier to keep Gilbert alive than it is Grimnak, for a variety of reasons (Grimnak often finds himself at the front lines of your army in order to provide his Orc Defensive Enhancement, Sir Gilbert is a much smaller figure and so is easier to hide behind LoS blockers; Grimnak doesn't benefit from jungle or shadow...). These things combined mean that knights are noticeably better than heavies into ranged common squads, which justifies them being A tier even though there are a couple of top tier armies that heavies do better into."

Hard disagree on both points. I think going for Grimnak is more of a gamble than a reliable way to win even for wait then fire builds, Grimnak will most of the time have height advantage and Nerak and will have 6 defense, if you bring Raelin in the discussion that's even harder for range to focus Grimnak.

At Scapecon 4 cheese (which was very convenient point/figure limit for knights at 400/18 ) and quite unconvenient for Heavies:
Knights record vs 10th: 1-6
Heavies record vs 10th: 3-2
Knights vs 4th: 0-1
Heavies vs 4th: 1-1
The 3 base attack of the knights is just MEGASH.. when dealing vs 10th under Raelin, there's nothing the knights player can do really, you can try to bring Gilbert more in earlier but he's gonna enhance max 1 or 2 guys. Meanwhile for Heavies if you get Grimnak well in and everyone in in the auras you gonna win, because chomp and basically being out-stated. If both players play well I think there's much more agencies for Heavies to win that machup, it's a much more varianced one than knights vs 10th. Yes sure sometimes Grimnak doesn't roll defense and dies and you lose, very hard. But I rather lose hard 50% and win closely 50% than lose closely 90% and win 10% and that's exactly the dynamics of the orcs/knights vs 10th machup;

" I just have greenscales at A- tier because, in and of themselves, greenscales are not that great imo. If we ignore their bonding heroes for a second, the GSWs are a 60 point, 3-man bonding squad who have 3 attack and 4 defence when they're within 2 spaces of their chosen hero. "

This makes no sense to me. You ignore their main point, bonding with a dragon (which means with a very strong figure most of the time) IS their whole point. Of course if you play them with freaking Zorgross hardscale or Brimstone or even alone LOL they megash.. but you have to rank figures per their best builds and synergies not their worst ones... Like knights without Gilbert are terrile etc... If greenies best builds is A tier they are A tier end of story. I could make the same argument for Nilf that he isn't that great without Greenies and hance shall be A- tier not A tier...
Also I think Braxas+Greenies+Rae is a way stronger build than what you give it credit for. I prefer playing Braxas Greenies over Nilf non greenie, Braxas Greenies won Renecheese sascon event went 4-0 won vs knights, Heavies two times (even tho one was a build that preferred Tornak +1x heavies over Grimnak) and even Hounds.

 

[Stoshy]

Just wanted to add that Knights are better than heavies because they get more/arguably better bonding options than heavies do.

 

[Foudzing]

Just wanted to add that Knights are better than heavies because they get more/arguably better bonding options than heavies do.

What? Knights have only one real strong bonding option: Gilbert. Non-Gilbert knights builds are not great if Gilbert didn't exist Knights would be B+ tier at most.

Alastair is a good fighter but you only add him once you already have Gilbert and at least 4xknights already and that is a lot of points (495 total) and even, most of the time you'd rather add Raelin+Marcu+Isamu, or Raelin+Marros if you have 130.
So the only spot where I would MAYBE play Alistar is at pin point 500pts/18 figures (4xknights Gilbert Alistar), and even then not really, I think I prefer Raelin+Marcu/Guilty and sit one knight, or 3xknight Gilbert Raelin Kravs, or 3xknights Gilbert Raelin Marros Marcu Guilty.
(But to be honest I'm probably not playing knights at 500/18 that's a better point figure total for Q9, Nilf or Heavies)

Finn not bad but not great, when as the sole bonding option, same problem, slow knights are bad, like the 3xWestons+Finn+Kravs/Marros kinda builds, imo those aren't great at high level of play, opponnent will play around Finn nicely and Knights will be kited to death. Finn in addition to Gilbert it's interesting like double aura can do work but he's very difficult to get into the fight, if you get like both heroes in that's very interesting but that's quite hard to do.

The others are underwhelming at best, I'm not gonna talk about them.

Also the thing with Knights is you really wanna dispatch every turn until all your knights are close and then you can finally use the other hero but by this time a lot of Knights will be dead and you are very likely to end up in an endgame with your 2 heroes and no knights left over.

Like the best Knights builds don't include nor Alastair nor Finn and even less the others and to me units to be ranked per their best build, especially in the high tiers Like A. So I don't see how this is relevant to the conversation.

 

[Nukatha]

Is it fair to categorize Iskra and Rechets separately (and so far apart)?
Have you played Dorim + Axegrinders? He's certainly their best bonding option, thanks to that move bonus, I was surprised to see him below Darrak.

 

[Foudzing]

Is it fair to categorize Iskra and Rechets separately (and so far apart)?
Have you played Dorim + Axegrinders? He's certainly their best bonding option, thanks to that move bonus, I was surprised to see him below Darrak.

I can answer for Grey Waves as I think we have same opinions on those:

Iskra is better without the rechets, most of the time the Rechets have 1 turn to deal damage, the summoning turn. Which makes them extremly unreliable.
Meanwhile Iskra is 4/6/1/3/3 stat with life steal and fly for 50points, which is bad, but still somewhat reliable in some endgames situations.

Dorim isn't bad, but Mogrimm is better, Mogrimm is just much better both offensively and defensively for just 20pts more. People judge Dorim just like if the move bonus was automatic like Marcus, it's really not, you don't have it in the whole development phase when you'd really want it.

 

[Grey Waves]

Lol @ Foudzing having more posts in this thread right now than I do.

But yes, Iskra is an ok cleanup unit thanks to her stats, Life Drain, and Flying. 50 points is not that expensive in the scheme of things either.

While Dorim's move bonus is nice, Mogrimm is almost always the better pick if you have the points to spare. 6 life 2 defence with Tough is much tankier than 5 life 3 defence, and Commander's Strike plus Combat Leader are both quite useful. In regards to Darrak, 60 points is a crazy low price to pay for a unit that commonly hits with 6 attack dice. His low cost also gives the Axegrinders great flexibility in terms of fitting point limits - Axegrinders wouldn't be as viable in nearly as many events as they are currently if their bonding options all costed 100+ points. (Having a cheap bonding hero is a particularly huge boon when it comes to non-traditional formats like Reverse the Whip). Dorim is kind of in an unfortunate middle ground where he's not quite as good as Mogrimm, but he costs considerably more than Darrak. He's still a good unit, but it's for the reasons outlined that I have both Mogrimm and Darrak ranked higher.

 

[Foudzing]

(Having a cheap bonding hero is a particularly huge boon when it comes to non-traditional formats like Reverse the Whip).

Okay I'm out of this thread. To me this is synonymous of "being good in bad builds is good" but is being good in rtw good? I can't handle this.
To me Darrack is B+ because while he's good for his cost, you always bring him as secondary bonder once you already got Mogrimm or Dorim, unless you play only 2xDwarves+Darrack as a side kick or something but I don't think those builds are any good, well they are B+ good but not A- good. To me the one and only A- dwarf build is max out Dwarves and Mogrimm, anything else is much weaker.

Since you are talking about RtW, in RtW you are probably aiming for a build in the C+ to B range so imo something like 2xDwarves+Darrack is too good here, I don't see how/why being a cheap bonding hero is a huge boost for RtW the two last scapecon RtW finalist builds had high costed bonding heroes (Gilbert and Valguard). I'm even going as far as believing points values of an unit have close to no impact in RtW. Like Darrack could be 10points or 110points it would not change his value in RtW much, he's still probably played the same amount of times.
A perfect example of that is Marcu being better than Hatamoto while costing 110pts less and both being perfectly usable and very used in RtW, cause they are very easy ways to make your army weaker or stronger depending on your need.

I can see Darrack being decent in roX tho since 2xDwarves Darrack is a decent sidekick but imo in normal points RoX you're pobably not playing Dwarves but rather rats, Greenies, Trons etc.. actual very strong squads in RoX normal points.

 

[Grey Waves]

Updated with the first half of Wave 3. As follows:

Knight Primus Adelbern to A: Incredibly dangerous with Chasers and unarguably the strongest AoA unit released so far. His only downside is you probably don't have the points to run Me-Burq-Sa and Raelin
Halushia, Scion of the Wild to B+: An excellent all-around package for 120 points. While his SA is obviously anti-squad in nature, 5 attack plus 7 move means he can also serve as a hero killer/assassin in a pinch
Hellforge Mandukor to B+: Auto wounds are good, healing is good, and he has solid stats to boot
Ordo Borealis to B+: Not being able to kite melee is annoying, but they can still dish out a solid amount of damage at huge range, especially when paired with Concan
Sonlen (AoA) to B: For the record, I do think that AoA Sonlen is better than SotM Sonlen, but the difference isn't big enough to warrant the two being in separate tiers. If only AoA Sonlen could heal himself...
Thyraxis Dragoon to B: Yes, he bonds with Nagrubs and is 25 points cheaper than Tor-Kul-Na, but Maddening Chitter only works once every 3 rounds on average and Battle Frenzy isn't nearly as good as Trample Stomp is

And the following three units have also gone up a tier:
Concan the Kyrie Warrior to B+: The Ordo Borealis plus Concan makes for a dangerous 190-point army core. He's also just a generically good beatstick with 4/4 stats plus 5 move flying
Iron Lich Viscerot to B+: Now that the Hellforge is out, there's more reason to run Eiseneks as a complete build (rather than just splashing Necrotechs into other armies). Not bad with Romans either
Ornak to B+: This was actually a mistake on my part - Ornak was always meant to be B+, but somehow got put in B when I was creating these rankings. Ornak builds are just as solid in the AoA-inclusive meta as they are in classic-only, just with a couple of new Red Flag of Fury options in AoA Raelin and Loviatak

 

[Grey Waves]

Updated the list with the second half of Wave 3.

Major Q11 to B+: Being able to ping at range while also being an absolute menace up close is a niche that few other figures have. Pairs well with low-attack melee squads like Dividers and Cutters. If only it wasn’t so difficult to get the maximum number of attacks with his special…
Queen Maladrix the Conqueror to A-: Maladrix hits hard, is beefy as heck, has a solid bonding squad, and is scary into both squads and heroes alike. She’s fairly average into ranged commons and does suffer from some placement issues, but her positive qualities are strong enough that she just squeezes into A- imo.
Festering Honor Guard to A-: What’s not to love about a cheap, mobile, 5-man squad that bonds with one of the best beatsticks in AoA? Offensive power is a little lacking, but Parasite makes up for it.
Wing Commander Tuck Harrigan to B+: 6 range, base 3 attack and flying make Tuck a big threat in cleanup. 60 points is not that expensive either.
Vorid Glide Stikers to C+: Aggressively mediocre. Poor stats plus the fact that they only drop one at a time makes them a difficult choice to justify in most armies.
Oathbound Legionnaires to B+: The Legionnaires and Phalanx are easily the AoA units I’m most intrigued by. They’re so unique from anything that’s come before that it’s a little tricky to give an initial assessment of their viability, but from what I heard they had a pretty good showing at Adepticon, so B+ seems like a reasonable ranking for now.
Oathbound Phalanx to B+: See above comment re: the Oathbound Legionnaires.