Feral Predator (Public Playtesting)

[ALEXAN2507]

Personally out of Arch and Japes' proposal I'm leaning on it being conditional on a shield instead of a skull to reduce the chance down a bit- if it still feels too tough like that I'm willing to drop defense to 2 as well but my preference at the moment is to keep the defense stat as is at 3.

 

[Arch-vile]

I'd be fine seeing that change tested in public testing. My gut says it'll still feel strong, but maybe that will be enough of a nerf.

 

[ALEXAN2507]

I'd be fine seeing that change tested in public testing. My gut says it'll still feel strong, but maybe that will be enough of a nerf.

For the record my concern with the idea of it being conditional on him taking no wounds is that I don't want big-single-attack figures to be able to reliably just ignore the risk constantly- they're already advantaged against him as you've pointed out, but I do see that as it stands it's overtuned a fair bit especially against figures that expect to be hitting him multiple times.

 

[MrNobody]

I kinda concur that I don't think that change move the needle much. But seems fine to move forward and see how it goes in testing!

 

[ALEXAN2507]

In that case I would like to propose a VOTE for public playtesting

 

[MrNobody]

Yea

 

[Arch-vile]

yea

 

[Ronin]

yea

 

[IAmBatman]

yea

 

[japes]

Yea

willing to see how it tests

 

[MrNobody]

So that's your 5 votes! Update the thread title and post in the Public Playtesting thread.

 

[Ericth74]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Feral Predator

Version tested:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = FERAL PREDATOR
IDENTITY =

UNIQUENESS = UNCOMMON HERO
SPECIES = YAUTJA
CLASS = HUNTER
PERSONALITY = RELENTLESS

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 6

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 3

POINTS = Aiming for 240

YAUTJA CLOAKING DEVICE
Feral Predator may move through all characters. While not on aquatic terrain, it is never in clear sight of enemies.

TRI-BOLT GUN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 2, 4, or 6.
Start this attack action with 6 attack dice in a dice pool. Attack with 2, 4, or 6 attack dice until all dice in the dice pool have been rolled. You may not attack the same figure more than once and you may reroll one die per attack. This ability may only be used once per round.

RAZOR SHIELD
Feral Predator has +1 block when defending. After combat when defending against an adjacent figure, if Feral Predator had 1+ shields, the attacker takes 1 wound.


FACTION =
PUBLISHER = DARK HORSE
KEYWORDS =
SYMBOLS = STEALTH

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: 1000 pts – Predator Elder 280, Feral Predator x2 480, Predator 240 VS 1000 pts – Captain America 240, Iron Man 270, War Machine 260, Black Widow 230

Spoiler Alert!

The Elder's Prey was Iron Man. The Elder directed the Hunters from the start zone putting pressure on the Avengers right away. Because of the Predators cloaking they Avengers were hit a couple of times before they could engage. This is were the Feral Predators shined. The low life on Iron Man and War Machine were really effected by Razor Shield both took wounds every time they attacked and Iron Man was stuck in engagement because he doesn't have Stealth. The Avengers took 6 wounds from the Razor Shield, only 2 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Predator 2 wounds/3 life left, Feral Predator 1 wound/4 life left

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Cell Games Arena
Units: 1000 pts – Predator Elder 280, Feral Predator 240, Cheetah 275, Kraven 200, Fighting Chance 5 VS 1000 pts – Magneto 320, Wild Child 120, Wolverine 280, Sabretooth 280

Spoiler Alert!

The Elder's Prey was Sabretooth. Kraven picks Magneto. Kraven did Kraven things and wiped out the entire second round of the mutants on an initiative switch and that was kind of game over. The Predator used his Tri-Bolt in all four rounds getting a minimum 4 skulls everytime. I used the mutant healers in this game to see if I could avoid some of the effects of the Razor Shield but he only faced 1 adjacent attack by Wolverine which end ed in a wound for Wolvie. This was a surprisingly one sided game.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Predator Elder full 5 life, Feral Predator 2 wounds/3 life left, Kraven 4 wounds/2 life left, Cheetah 4 wounds/2 life left

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: I like the concept here but they might be coming in slightly hot. Either I just had crazy luck with Razor Shield or it's a little too strong, with it doing 7 wounds in my 2 games. It did hit well above average so we can wait and see what other playtesters get before deciding to make a change. Not 100% sure what the solution is there though, could limit it to once a turn so multi-attackers like Iron Man or bonding teams don't get burned so easily. His other powers are solid, although I think the Tri-Bolt SA could use a small change. I always attacked with 6 dice, and didn't see a situation where an attack of 4 and then 2 are really useful. Maybe two attacks of 3 against squads could work but an attack of 2 is almost useless in C3G. Seems like a neat design that works really well with the current Predators and Hunters.

 

[ALEXAN2507]

Do we reckon it's worth applying a nerf to Razor Shield before I run my own tests on it or should I hold off and see how I find it in my playtesting before making a change to it?

 

[Arch-vile]

Might be worth a change before your tests? I was a little worried the skulls->shields change wouldn't be enough.

 

[ALEXAN2507]

Might be worth a change before your tests? I was a little worried the skulls->shields change wouldn't be enough.

How do you feel about dropping the Defense stat to 2 and seeing how that works in my tests?

 

[MrNobody]

That makes sense!

 

[Arch-vile]

Sounds good to me!

 

[Ericth74]

Worth a try

 

[ALEXAN2507]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Feral Predator

NOTE: For these playtests I had misunderstood the Bio-Mask Targeting ability on the regular Predators and thought they cancelled height advantage, but that shouldn't have impact on how the Feral Predator did in these tests.

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units:
Predator Elder (280)
Feral Predator (240)
Predator (240) x2 (480)

vs

Mister Fantastic (235)
Thing (325)
Human Torch (225)
Invisible Woman (215)

Spoiler Alert!

Spoiler Alert!

SETUP
Predator Elder selects Mister Fantastic as his Prey.

ROUND ONE
FF initiative

Turn One - spent moving whole FF up, Feral and Elder move.

Turn Two - Reed fails to activate anyone else. Feral Pred uses Tri-Bolt Gun on Reed, rolls 5 skulls, re-rolls for a full SIX SKULLS against 3 shields and deals 3 wounds.
Elder moves next to Reed and attacks for 3 skulls + 1 hit, Reed ones ONE SHIELD out of nine dice, takes three wounds and is defeated.
Turn Three - No FF activations. Two Predators move up.


ROUND TWO
FF initiative

Turn One - Ben moves up, Feral moves towards Invisible Woman, Predator Black moves next to Human Torch.

Turn Two - Ben moves next to Feral and attacks, rolls 4 skulls vs no shields +1 block, 3 wounds. Feral Pred moves next to Sue and uses Tri-Bolt, 4 skulls, no reroll, 2 shields, 2 wounds. Predator Black moves next to Sue and attacks, deals 1 wound.

Turn Three - Ben attacks Feral Pred with +3 Attack from Sue wounds. SEVEN SKULLS vs NO SHIELDS, Feral defeated. Predator Black attacks and defeats Sue. Elder deals 2 wounds to Ben.


ROUND THREE
Predators initiative

Turn One - Ben attacks Predator Black and deals 2 wounds.

Turn Two - Predator White attacks Ben and deals 3 wounds, Predator Black attacks Ben and deals 1 wound, Ben is defeated.

Turn Three - Predator Black attacks Johnny, 2 wounds. Johnny deals 2 wounds to Predator White with Flame On


ROUND FOUR
FF initiative

Turn One - Johnny deals 3 wounds to Predator Elder. Predator Black attacks Johnny with 3 skulls vs NO SHIELDS, Johnny is defeated.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes):
Predator Elder (2/5 life)
Predator Black (3/5 life)
Predator White (3/5 life)

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units:
Predator Elder (280)
Feral Predator (240)
Predator (240) x2 (480)

vs

M.O.D.O.K (380)
Scientist Supreme (220)
A.I.M Agents (80) x5 (400)

Spoiler Alert!

Spoiler Alert!

SETUP
Predator Elder selects MODOK as his Prey.

ROUND ONE
AIM initiative

Turn One - AIM Agents and MODOK move up. Feral Pred and Elder move up, Elder attacks MODOK, 3 skulls vs 3 shields, no wounds.

Turn Two - Three different AIM Agents move up. Feral Pred moves up and targets three Agents with Tri-Bolt Gun.
No skulls, no reroll.
2 skulls vs 1 shield, defeated.
2 skulls vs no shields, defeated.
Elder moves up and attacks adjacent MODOK, MODOK takes 1 wound. Predator Black moves up.

Turn Three - Three AIM Agents use Toxic Virus on Feral Pred. 2 skulls vs 1 shield +1 block, no wounds. MODOK uses Designed Only on Elder and deals a wound. MODOK uses Psionic Command on Elder and deals a wound. Elder moves adjacent to Feral and attacks, 3 skulls +1 hit vs 1 shield +1 block, , Feral takes 2 wounds and inflicts a wound on Elder in return.
Predator Black defeats an Agent. Elder moves next to two Agents and attacks both, defeating one.

Cleanup - Scientist Supreme puts Armor Marker on Agents.

ROUND TWO
AIM intiative

Turn One - Three AIM Agents move up, four use Toxic Virus on Elder, dealing two wounds and defeating him. MODOK uses Designed Only on Predator Black, deals a wound, uses Psionic Command on PB, deals no wounds. No Predators activate.

Turn Two - Three AIM Agents move up, four Agents use Toxic Virus on Feral, roll 1 skull, no wounds due to autoblock. MODOK uses DO on Predator Black and deals a wound, uses Psionic Command on PB, deals a wound, PB moves next to Feral and attacks, 2 skulls vs no shields +1 block, PB and Feral take a wound each.
Feral Predator moves adjacent to three AIM Agents and uses Tri-Bolt on all three.
1 skull vs 4 SHIELDS out of four dice.
No skulls, no re-roll.
No skulls, no re-roll.

Turn Three - Five Agents use Toxic Virus on Feral, rolling 4 skulls. Feral can only achieve a maximum of 3 blocks, and will take an extra wound from TV, and is on two life, so Feral cannot possibly roll enough to survive and is defeated. MODOK defeats Predator Black with Designed Only. No Predator activation.

Cleanup - Scientist Supreme gives Weapons Marker to Agents.

ROUND THREE
AIM initiative

Predator White deals 2 wounds to MODOK and defeats an Agent. MODOK deals PW 3 wounds across the round.

ROUND FOUR
AIM initiative

MODOK deals two wounds to Predator White and defeats him.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes):
MODOK (3/6 life)
Scientist Supreme (4/4 life)
10 AIM Agents

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Cost-wise, Feral Predator feels maybe a little too high in my opinion now. I think nixing him from 3 Def to 2 Def has somewhat hurt him because not only has it reduced his ability to survive but it's also reduced his ability to dish out damage. In the first game Razor Shield never kicked in because Feral Pred only got to roll two defense rolls and rolled no shields on either due to Ben pasting him in just two attacks. In the second game, the only times Feral Pred got to roll for Razor Shield was against other mind-controlled Predators. Granted, the story would probably be different if I was running exclusively Feral Preds, but I wanted to try him as a melee-oriented unit in a larger Predator team instead of as a pure swarm tactic. I also wanted to try the Tri-Bolt Gun against squads and so pit him against AIM, but across six two-dice attacks with rerolls with it he only managed to kill two AIM Agents, which felt pretty underwhelming.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: I think currently he felt like he's getting a bit outshone by the regular Predators, largely because they have an easier time of just not dying. Personally, I think keeping him at 2 Def is probably the move, because Archie and Eric both were of the opinion that Razor Shield at 3 Def is just too strong and punishing even if it's on shields, but I'd like to maybe propose upping him to 6 life to give him a little longevity to match his fellow Predators. While 2 Def +1 block is more consistent than 5 Def it also means that Feral just couldn't tank high attack rolls at all. I'd also like to change how the Tri-Bolt Gun works to moving it from a dice pool to making it a choice of 3 attacks of 3 dice or 1 attack of 6 dice. While this would make it quite a lot stronger for squads, I think that fact is mitigated by the fact that it's a once-per-round ability.

 

[Ericth74]

For Razor Shield, what if you upped defense back to 3 but instead of an auto wound on 1+ shields make it a damage die? Might be a happy midway point.

 

[Arch-vile]

You mention "no re-roll" a few times in your games - does that mean the rerolled die was not a skull? Also during the second game, it looks like you had AIM Agents activate, then MODOK, then MODOK activate Feral Predator. The "you may not activate additional figures this turn" on the AIM Agent bonding should cut off any additional activations besides MODOK's.

I'm cool with either +1 Life or Eric's suggested change for Razor Shield.

That suggestion for Tri-Bolt Gun is definitely a power up but I think it's good to have the option that isn't 6 dice to be worthwhile. I like that idea.

 

[ALEXAN2507]

You mention "no re-roll" a few times in your games - does that mean the rerolled die was not a skull? Also during the second game, it looks like you had AIM Agents activate, then MODOK, then MODOK activate Feral Predator. The "you may not activate additional figures this turn" on the AIM Agent bonding should cut off any additional activations besides MODOK's.

I'm cool with either +1 Life or Eric's suggested change for Razor Shield.

That suggestion for Tri-Bolt Gun is definitely a power up but I think it's good to have the option that isn't 6 dice to be worthwhile. I like that idea.

On the rerolls, yeah, I was using that to signify that the reroll was used but accomplished nothing
On the Psionic Command- damn it. I actually checked this last time I used AIM in a playtest and totally forgot about it this time. That does mean the AIM playtest would've been more skewed towards AIM than intended- should I rerun the test before making any changes to the design?

I think I'd go with Eric's 3 def and a damage die idea instead of the 1 life now that he's said it.

 

[Ericth74]

Id run 1 more game with the 2 changes. Doesn't have to be against AIM but it can be.