[Defunct] The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne)

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Batman Thomas

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Batman (Thomas Wayne) (200), Robin (Tim) (120), Robin (Damian) (80), Nightwing (II) (200) (600) VS Captain Cold (II), Captain Boomerang (Digger Harkness), Tar Pit, Abra Kadabra (600)

Spoiler Alert!

Batman and Nightwing make short work of Abra Kadabra thanks to their double attacks and Batman’s extra wound countering Faux Magical Defense. Tar Pit locks down Nightwing and deals him a couple wounds. Boomerang lands a wound on Batman. Tar Pit melts Nightwing. Batman kills Boomerang in a single turn. Damian wounds Cold, then Tar Pit + Cold kill Damian.

Batman brings Cold to 3 wounds while Tim engages Tar Pit to block access to engaging Batman. Cold tries to kill Batman but takes a wound from The House Always Wins, then Batman kills Cold. Batman then kills Tar Pit.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Batman Thomas (1 wound) and Robin Tim (1 wound) win.

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Batman (Thomas Wayne) (200), Oracle (110), Nightwing (200), Robin Tim (120), Robin Jason (70) (700) VS Luke Cage (190), Punisher (180), Swordsman (160), Night Thrasher (170) (700)

Spoiler Alert!

The Fighters take out Nightwing early on, while Luke blocks a lot of the attacks thrown against him. Batman tries to shoot but Night Thrasher’s smoke pellets conceal them. Swordsman takes out Jason Todd. Batman is blocked. Swordsman kills his second Robin. Batman misses his The House Always Wins roll, and Punisher puts 2 wounds onto Batman. Batman attacks a 1-wound Cage from height twice, and hits both attacks, which is enough to kill Luke thanks to Surgical Precision. Luke Cage had OM2 which is lost.

Batman attacks Swordsman but is blocked. A 0-wound Punisher targets Batman for an attack, and is killed by The House Always Wins. (It would have been pointless to stop attempting to target Batman, because the Fighters have to kill Batman to win and can’t do that without targeting him.) Batman kills Night Thrasher. Batman wins initiative and kills Swordsman.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Batman Thomas (2 wounds) and Oracle (0 wounds) wins.

This was a blowout loss for the Bat-Family until Thomas Wayne turned it around essentially by himself.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: 2 games in, but I think he needs some changes as he's really strong right now.

Thomas Wayne is a strong figure - ranged double attack paired with an extra wound from Surgical Precision will shred most figures at or below his point cost. The House Always Wins is a brutal defensive power, as it is essentially Spidey-Sense that procs at least half the time (more often if you have revealed OMs on Bats), plus an autowound on the attacker. Sure, it lets opponents try again but it means that they risk additional wounds. And there's few ways around it, as it works against adjacent attacks and special attacks.

I think he needs tuned down a bit. There's plenty of ways to go about doing that. One thing I would suggest is turning The House Always Wins into more of a standard "if you roll X or higher" thing, or remove the bonus for Batman's roll if you like the head-to-head aspect of it. Alternatively, possibly removing the extra wound bit from Surgical Precision would cut down his offense significantly. Even a normal ranged double attack of 4 is top tier offense for the Bat-Family faction.

All that said, I enjoyed how he played. Thomas Wayne Batman is a very brutal character compared to the traditional Bruce Wayne Batman, and this design represents that offensive fury well. He's a fun design and nice addition to the faction.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

Some thoughts on how to scale if back a bit. Would making the bonus W a 50/50 thing help?

SURGICAL PRECISION
When Batman attacks, he may attack one additional time. If Batman inflicts at least one wound with his normal attack, roll an unblockable attack die against that figure.

What if it was limited to one bonus wound for the entire attack phase instead of per attack?

SURGICAL PRECISION
When Batman attacks, he may attack one additional time. If Batman inflicts one or more wounds with a normal attack during his turn, roll an unblockable attack die against one of the wounded figures.

Some kind of limit to the types of attacks is a good idea on the House power. Should always have some kind of counter options just for game balance/fun factor. Another thought would be to let them make the attack, if they are still alive after taking the W.

THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS
When a figure targets Batman for a normal attack, before that attack you must both roll the 20-sided die. Add 2 to your roll for each revealed Order Marker on this card. If you roll higher, the targeting figure receives a wound, and it may target Batman again otherwise its turn immediately ends.

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

Great ideas.Any of those would be solid tweaks as well.

 

[Shiftrex]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

I think hitting the normal attacks instead of all attacks with the House always wins is a good way to scale it back. I understand wanting it to hit everything but it pushes him into another weight class.

The change to surgical precision here looks fun, I think it is still useful and doesn't take too much away but it allows people to not get destroyed as quickly. Getting nailed with two attacks and then two unblockables probably sucks on the same figure.

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

I like both suggestions. Will make updates tomorrow to limit The House Always Wins to normal attacks and limit the auto wound on Surgical Precision to once per turn. Appreciate the initial and good to hear he's a brute!

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

Also, moving the OM reveals to +1 instead of +2 was something that was originally contemplated, that would be another way to take down his defensive prowess.

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

SP updated with changes to nerf him a bit.

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

Sounds good, I'll plan for a couple more tests!

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Initial Playtesting

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Batman Thomas

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Batman (Thomas Wayne) (200), Batman (Bat-Family) (270), Robin (Damian) (80), Lucius Fox (50), Robin (Dick) (100) (700) VS Pinhead(335), Jason(175), Sam(95), Leatherface(95) (700)

Spoiler Alert!

Leatherface and Dick end up both falling to the first attacks of the game. Thomas and Damian bring Jason up to 4 wounds. Jason puts a few wounds on Bruce before Thomas and Damian bring him down. Thomas and Damian then take out Sam, but doing so brings back Leatherface. Leatherface massacres Damian. Leatherface puts a couple wounds on Thomas but Thomas shoots at Pinhead from height and nails his Surgical Precision unblockables to kill him. Jason rises from the grave.

Thomas kills Leatherface while Jason kills Bruce. Jason proves an effective counter against Thomas, with his Unstoppable Resilience essentially negating The House Always Wins and the unblockable part of Surgical Precision. Jason kills Thomas then Lucius Fox for the win.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Jason (5 wounds) wins.

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Batman (Bat-Family) (270), Batman (Thomas Wayne) (200), Batgirl (Cassie) (130), Batwoman (180), Robin Tim (120) (900) VS Cyclops (Utopian) (240), Archangel (260), Jean Grey (180), Storm (220) (900)

Spoiler Alert!

Mutants get off to a good start, with Cyclops sniping a couple wounds onto Bruce and Robin. The Batfam offense initially struggles to do much, though Thomas wounds Jean once. Cyclops rushes in for an Optic Destruction that kills Bruce and heavily wounds Robin. Thomas brings Jean to 3 wounds. The X-Men take out Robin, and Storm elects to use Lightning Tempest to avoid Thomas’s THAW, which deals a couple wounds to Thomas and Batwoman while killing her own ally Jean.

Thomas wounds Storm and Batgirl wounds Cyclops. Storm kills Batwoman and Thomas. Batgirl nearly kills Cyclops but Archangel’s rolls for autowounds prove too hot.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Cyclops (4 wounds), Storm (2 wounds), Archangel win.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Much more balanced after the revisions. Thomas is still quite good, but he doesn’t deal out quite as much damage and he’s defensively vulnerable when he misses The House Always Wins. Despite 2 losses here he felt quite balanced and I would not change anything.

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

Thanks for the additional tests! Looks like 200 points with the modifications is a better competitive fit than before.

I propose this moves to Public Playtesting.
@Arkham - ;
@Ericth74 - Yea ;
@IAmBatman - ;
@MrNobody - Yea ;
@Tornado - Yea ;
@Arch-vile - Yea ;
@Yodaking - Yea ;

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

yea

Does the ; keep it from all being on one line? I just had to reformat a post of mine with tags in it.

 

[Tornado]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

Yea

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

Yea

 

[Lord Pyre]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

Yea

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

yea

 

[Ericth74]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

Yea

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

yea

Does the ; keep it from all being on one line? I just had to reformat a post of mine with tags in it.

No, it did not, I had to reformat as well.

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - VOTE for Playtesting

Thanks for the additional tests! Looks like 200 points with the modifications is a better competitive fit than before.

I propose this moves to Public Playtesting.
@Arkham - ;
@Ericth74 - Yea ;
@IAmBatman - ;
@MrNobody - Yea ;
@Tornado - Yea ;
@Arch-vile - Yea ;
@Yodaking - Yea ;

This Passes for Playtesting.

 

[Karat]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

One change I'd recommend. Otherwise it seems like it keeps going till the attacking figure either dies or gets an attack through, and like Ericth, the way it read was a bit confusing initially

THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS
If a figure targets Batman for a normal attack, you must both players must roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each revealed Order Marker on this card. If you roll higher, the targeting figure receives a wound, and it may target Batman againone additional time, otherwise its turn immediately ends.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = BATMAN SECRET IDENTITY = THOMAS WAYNE
SPECIES = HUMAN UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO CLASS = VIGILANTE PERSONALITY = RUTHLESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5 LIFE = 4 MOVE = 5 RANGE = 5 ATTACK = 4 DEFENSE = 5 POINTS = 200

BAT-GRAPPLE 3
Instead of his normal move, Batman may move up to 3 spaces with Bat-Grapple. When moving with Bat-Grapple, Batman has the Flying special power, but may not move up or down more than 30 levels in a single grapple, and will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

SURGICAL PRECISION
When Batman attacks, he may attack one additional time. If Batman inflicts one or more wounds with a normal attack during his turn, roll an unblockable attack die against one of the wounded figures.

THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS
If a figure targets Batman for a normal attack, you must both roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each revealed Order Marker on this card. If you roll higher, the targeting figure receives a wound, and it may target Batman again otherwise its turn immediately ends.

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT (Batman)
Army Test 1
- Give a brief preview. Trying him out with some basic Vigilante synergy here while giving him an Insane army to take down.
Map: Crime Ally – Custom Map
Units: Batman, Robin (120), Huntress, Oracle, Dare Devil II (800) vs. Joker Goons, HQ, Green Goblin, Scorpion, Firefly (800)

Spoiler Alert!

Bat-Grapple 3 Usage: Used to zip up to top of tall building,
Surgical Percision Usage: Used Double Attack every time he could attack. Rolled unblockable vs. HQ, miss.
The House Always Wins Usage: Roll off vs. HQ = 0-1. 2 Joker Goons could have shot at Batman and opted not to risk it. Roll of vs. GG = 1-2, 1W to GG.
Normal Damage Dealt: 2W to HQ from HG, Killed 1 Joker Goon from HG,
Damage Taken: 2W taken from HQ SA that did not target him directly, 1W from GG normal attack, 1W from GG SA.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? GG w/1W, HQ w/2W, Scorpion at full life, & 1 Joker Goon wins.

Recap: HQ gets a 5 skull roll for her SA, taking out Robin and wounding both Batman & Huntress. Not a good start for the vigilantes. Huntress gets one shot at HQ before going down to GG. GG then battled Batman and took him out too. Daredevil charges in and takes down Firefly and a Joker Goon before dropping to Scorpion. HQ starts beating on a girl in a wheelchair. Scorpion joins in. Oracle goes down.
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Powers all check out, but I was a little surprised that he only had a move of 5 when Robin, Huntress, Daredevil, & HQ were all moving 6 spaces. I'd consider bumping him up to a 6 base move, unless he's suppose to be slower due to his age.
- What should be the unit's point value? This turned out to be a lashing with HQ dealing a big blow to start things off. Even without that, HQ & GG both having 1 shield defense ended up being a poor match-up for him. All in all, he felt very compariable to Dare Devil at 200 points. Both have some staying power on defense, both have a double attack option, both can deal a bonus wound, so I'd say 200 is a good fit.
_____________________________________________________________
Army Test 2
- Give a brief preview. Double Ranged Attack + bonus damage seems like a good fit for boosters, so I'm trying him out in a Cap America build here. Added the War Weather combo to make it even more difficult for Batman (and Cap) to be targeted or engaged. Red Skull will try to over come those boosts with some re-rolls while Conan charge through the Fog to engage his foes. Kraven will hunt Cap, since he should be getting some OM's and boosts the others.
Map: Crime Alley – Custom Map
Units: Batman, Capt. America, War Machine, Weather Wizard (800) vs. Red Skull II, Crossbones, Kraven, Conan (800)

Spoiler Alert!

Bat-Grapple 3 Usage: Used to zip up onto a small hill.
Surgical Percision Usage: Used Double Attack every time he could attack. Rolled unblockable vs. Kraven twice, miss x2.
The House Always Wins Usage: Rolled vs. Crossbones, 1-1, 1W to Crossbones, rolled vs. Red Skull, 0-1
Normal Damage Dealt: 2W to Kraven from HG while boosted by Cap, 3W to Kraven from HG, 1W to Conan from HG,
Damage Taken: 3W from Crossbones on LG, 1W from Red Skull on LG at range.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Conan w/2W, Kraven w/5W, Red Skull w/1W, & Crossbones w/1W won.

Recap: Everything was set up for Batman to shine, unfortunetly he was only able to take advantage of Cap's attack boost once before Cap goes down to a barrage of bullets and a couple of Nerve Punches. Batman unloads on Kraven in response and almost puts him down, but fails on the 50/50 roll. Conan then beats WW to a pulp. Batman then turns his attention to Conan. Red Skull wins initiative and he & Crossbones gun down a full life Batman from LG before he can take any turns, costing his team all their OM's. Conan then beat Warmachine down with just one use of his SA. The skulls were rolling on offense for Team Red Skull, even before the re-rolls came into play. I had several all skull rolls without any re-rolled dice.
- Does it pass, Yes or No? After thinking about it more, I like that he's slower with less life to represent his older age when starting this life. However, I didn't have much success with the House Always Wins (won just 2 out of 7 tries in two games), which didn't really match the name very well. I might extend the boost from OM on his card to include unrevealed ones.
- What should be the unit's point value? The 4 life is a bit of an achilies heel, with SA's, unblockables, & d20 powers able to put him down quick. His potential damage output is impressive, even when I missed every bonus unblockable in my games and rolled poorly for his defensive power, he was effective at distributing wounds. So 200 seems like it's in the ball park even with the two losses, you just need to feed him a lot of OM's early as you don't know how long he'll stay in play.

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

Thanks for the tests Yoda!

 

[redstang]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

I went ahead and updated the text for The House Always Wins as suggested by Karat. We will be playtesting with the updated language.

 

[Ericth74]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

Don't forget to link the playtests in the OP

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

@redstang where are we at with this design?

 

[Karat]

Re: The Book of Batman (Thomas Wayne) - Playtesting

I think this one needs another set of tests post changes.