I'm surprised to hear people trash the War Council designs. As for the later Renegade designs, we haven't seen their cards yet.
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Consolidated List of Problems With The Renegade AOA Roll Out
- Thread starter chas
- Start date
I'm not sure I've seen anyone trash the designs at least not in terms of mechanics or gameplay. I've seen folks mention they don't find the characters or character concepts tropey in the same way as old school Heroscape, which feels pretty valid.
Scott
Active member
One of the key measures for me of ‘does it feel like HeroScape?’ is if I’d want to use the figs in an RPG. Most of the new figs pass this text for me. Distinct and interesting characters, some could be in a scifi setting, others fantasy, some even horror. That’s not what I buy them for (I don’t play RPGs these days), but that was a big part of why I got into the game in the first place.
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Sure, and everyone's criteria is different. For me, the AoA stuff (for the most part, other than maybe the animals) shifted from one clearly recognizable trope per character to "mishmash of tropes." I think the pirates were the worst offenders for the latter, feeling not terribly stereotypically "piratey" to me.
I'm not sure if they're released yet, but the Alien lifecycle stuff was the other fairly tropey thing in the Haslab campaign.
nyys
quoting myself - insanity beckons
100%
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
This goes in both directions: it's not doing any favors to the mashed-in groups, either. "Bock Burna" (as Renegade called him) is a great example. Doesn't feel like a convincing pirate and doesn't feel properly Marro. The latter of course got shafted in the Haslab effort and basically replaced by the Craven Court, which stole a lot of their identity, so maybe somebody thought they were throwing us a bone with this worst-of-both-worlds approach? It actually makes it sting more, as it's almost an exclamation point on the cancellation of the Marro. As if to say "and here, we'll give you one, but it's a fake one, just in case you didn't get the hint that we get to do whatever we want, and what we want is to phase out a bunch of the things you loved about this game."
Yes, they can do whatever they want with the IP, and we can do whatever we want with our wallets. Mine's closed until the offerings start showing some serious, honest respect and understanding for more than just game mechanics. Two waves of Heroscape without a real and significant Marro presence is kinda tonedeaf, and that's just the tip of the iceberg on the disregard for what makes Heroscape Heroscape. If all we cared about were game mechanics, we could play this thing with generic plastic pawns that say things like HERO and MONSTER. Good gameplay is essential, but it alone is not sufficient. Newsflash for everyone on the production side: You Have To Do Both.
I'm reminded of the turning point in Portal 2 development where Gabe Newell suddenly realized the obvious: we're making a Portal game without portals. Immediately they wisely started over again, went back to all the things that made the original a success, and launched one of the most beloved sequels (heck, one of the most beloved games, period) in the history of video gaming. Renegade is selling Heroscape with a bunch of its foundations missing: historical figures, consistently recognizable tropes, the Marro, compelling lore, great unit naming, stackable walls that actually stack, tiles that always fit ... if anyone had predicted all this a few years ago, I would not have believed it. I knew they would get some things wrong, but this many? How is that possible?
I feel like AoA is mostly C level units that aren't interesting thematically, so Its not very fun to play with. Being all Unique hurts AoA badly, I hardly ever build an army without a common squad base. I also feel like unique squads do kinda suck, when playing against them my first priority is to kill a member of each unique squad so my opponent won't get a full activation with their markers.
There isn't much synergy with classic and most of what there is isn't very useful. The bears are probably the best, but they're a unique squad so...
Edit: I appreciate the new Utgar Kyrie that boosts the Minions.
The synergy within AoA is pretty limited too. There are a bunch of obvious pairings, that almost have to be played together (Iron Lich and Wraith riders, Ewashia and a Beast, Pirates, etc.) There's not going to be a lot of variety in army building until a lot of new cards come out. But they're releasing slower than classic did and focusing on introducing new factions instead of adding to the ones that are already out. It will be a while until there are more viable or interesting options.
There is potential that the synergy things could change in the future if they continue making the game long enough. It took classis until wave 5 or so for armies to really become cohesive. We will see if Renegade can get that far with it.
There isn't much synergy with classic and most of what there is isn't very useful. The bears are probably the best, but they're a unique squad so...
Edit: I appreciate the new Utgar Kyrie that boosts the Minions.
The synergy within AoA is pretty limited too. There are a bunch of obvious pairings, that almost have to be played together (Iron Lich and Wraith riders, Ewashia and a Beast, Pirates, etc.) There's not going to be a lot of variety in army building until a lot of new cards come out. But they're releasing slower than classic did and focusing on introducing new factions instead of adding to the ones that are already out. It will be a while until there are more viable or interesting options.
There is potential that the synergy things could change in the future if they continue making the game long enough. It took classis until wave 5 or so for armies to really become cohesive. We will see if Renegade can get that far with it.
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wriggz
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
See I like all unique squads, and find common squads change the nature of the game similar to how marvel would when included.
I've had fun with the pirates while Squidward and a couple of beasts can be a fun core. Then again the cowboys and ninja are one of my favorite single pack so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Looking at my wallet I'm thinking commons will be when I get off the train, but all things considered I'm not regretting my purchases at this point. I'm actually mostly looking forward to the other clockwork units, save the addition of a new general.
I've had fun with the pirates while Squidward and a couple of beasts can be a fun core. Then again the cowboys and ninja are one of my favorite single pack so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Looking at my wallet I'm thinking commons will be when I get off the train, but all things considered I'm not regretting my purchases at this point. I'm actually mostly looking forward to the other clockwork units, save the addition of a new general.
Dorim is the best hero for the Axegrinders, as Charge! means they can still move 5 when bonding.
The Ullar Kyrie also slot in nice alongside the old figures.
So far that's it for standouts besides the bears you already mentioned.
I maintain that Bok-Bur-Na should have more Marro synergy than a mere 5% heal chance boost from Su-Bak-Na. Even Ne-Gok-Sa at least bonds with the Groks (lol, imagine playing that army outside of delta).
The Queen of synergy with old units will be Crimson Widow, by allowing any unique squad to count as Pirates and get +1 attack, but she's not scheduled until late 2025, so who knows if Renegade will even make it that far.
Last, regarding our new undead Kyrie: would Misaerx's Life Drain Spirit really have been broken if it could go on any Unique Warrior Hero instead of Revna Warriors only? Jotun wouldn't be broken with life drain, right?
They could have trialed dual-race figures with them, such that they count as both Kyrie and Undead for the purpose of abilities, but I suppose the only official synergy that would facilitate is Atlaga's move bonus, until we get general-changing abilities. (We already have race/class/personality changes, why not General?) Actually, that's a wonderful idea. Revna hero who can influence one unique figure in your army to count as Revna. Then Life Drain Jotun could be a thing! Huzzah!I actually like many of the new figures, they add even more diversity when you include the old units...the issue is you need the old faction and units. Which are getting increasingly hard to get. They cannot just reprint old units as many will just not buy them as they already have them and will not buy them. And they cannot just make new units that work with old units because most new players will not be able to get the old units unless they invest waaaaaay too much money on them.
A big issue that has not been touched upon is how scalpers really hurt the game by trying to farm people for money. That and the fact that the game has been out of print for so long. They are killing the game for relatively short term gains.
Which is probably why they focused on new factions with a few units for the old factions here and there (I do not understand why they killed the Marro as that was a unique heroscape faction that Avalon hills said they wanted more of, but maybe they will bring them back in a "marro returns" arc). The issue is veterans will be put off along with newcomers and a lot of the magic of heroscape is lost as a result. It was supposed to be a all out battle where a orc riding a dinosaur eats a secret agent, a ww2 soldier kills a dragon, a elven archer takes out a futuristic mech, a samurai fights a musketeer, etc.
That is what made the game so big, especially with kids. The new units do work when mixed with the old units, but new players cannot get the old units unless they become hard core players. Which most will not or cannot join because of a lack of money.
So they should make remasters of old units and power creep the game a bit like MTG or Pokémon. Older units could then be made to be more collectors items with new versions of orcs, samurai, Valkyrie, etc replacing them. Imagine if you needed base set Charizard to play modern Pokémon competitively. The game would become unaffordable unless they wanted to destroy the value of everyone's collections by printing the same old cards over and over...which will make the game unprofitable. This game is old enough that it needs a new baseline to slowly invalidate older units competitively at a slow enough pace that nobody really loses anything.
Yeah, I know people will hate hearing that. But it is a necessary evil at this point. The game needs to make a profit so people need a reason to buy the new stuff. New players need to not need old heroscape stuff at all. The old stuff will still have value and will become even more valuable if the game gets bigger anyways, but more in a collector way.
They are kind of doing it with Promos, but they really should not be promos. We should have a "marro returns" set in the future with a more powerful version of the marro who somehow returned in a future arc. Ofc, they should just release all the Avalon stuff first, maybe they are already planning on making a bunch of old heroscape stuff for after that.
A big issue that has not been touched upon is how scalpers really hurt the game by trying to farm people for money. That and the fact that the game has been out of print for so long. They are killing the game for relatively short term gains.
Which is probably why they focused on new factions with a few units for the old factions here and there (I do not understand why they killed the Marro as that was a unique heroscape faction that Avalon hills said they wanted more of, but maybe they will bring them back in a "marro returns" arc). The issue is veterans will be put off along with newcomers and a lot of the magic of heroscape is lost as a result. It was supposed to be a all out battle where a orc riding a dinosaur eats a secret agent, a ww2 soldier kills a dragon, a elven archer takes out a futuristic mech, a samurai fights a musketeer, etc.
That is what made the game so big, especially with kids. The new units do work when mixed with the old units, but new players cannot get the old units unless they become hard core players. Which most will not or cannot join because of a lack of money.
So they should make remasters of old units and power creep the game a bit like MTG or Pokémon. Older units could then be made to be more collectors items with new versions of orcs, samurai, Valkyrie, etc replacing them. Imagine if you needed base set Charizard to play modern Pokémon competitively. The game would become unaffordable unless they wanted to destroy the value of everyone's collections by printing the same old cards over and over...which will make the game unprofitable. This game is old enough that it needs a new baseline to slowly invalidate older units competitively at a slow enough pace that nobody really loses anything.
Yeah, I know people will hate hearing that. But it is a necessary evil at this point. The game needs to make a profit so people need a reason to buy the new stuff. New players need to not need old heroscape stuff at all. The old stuff will still have value and will become even more valuable if the game gets bigger anyways, but more in a collector way.
They are kind of doing it with Promos, but they really should not be promos. We should have a "marro returns" set in the future with a more powerful version of the marro who somehow returned in a future arc. Ofc, they should just release all the Avalon stuff first, maybe they are already planning on making a bunch of old heroscape stuff for after that.
wriggz
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
I'm actually really curious what % of AoA sales are to people who still have a RotV set kicking around. It's been 20 years, for a game that launched before the golden age of gaming. And remember it was mostly a kids game back then, not something like Warhammer or D&d.
I'm betting a significant number of sets were sold to people who played it as kids but their games have been lost to time, or they had only played it at a friend's house.
Like if or not AoA must stand on its own feet and will carve its own path. For all the bitching about renegade they are not in this just to make money with a reprint. Someone is passionate about heroscape and with that passion comes a desire to create something new, not retired the past.
I'm betting a significant number of sets were sold to people who played it as kids but their games have been lost to time, or they had only played it at a friend's house.
Like if or not AoA must stand on its own feet and will carve its own path. For all the bitching about renegade they are not in this just to make money with a reprint. Someone is passionate about heroscape and with that passion comes a desire to create something new, not retired the past.
At $65 per squad, its going to be cheaper to find original versions of everything except maybe wave 9. Are you going to pay $65 for a reprinted squad of Roman Legionnaires and Marcus in a box?
Renegade is just as guilty of strangling the long term growth of the game for short term profits as the scalpers are. Wave two isn't sold out anywhere I've seen and its even been discounted 15% at my FLGS ever since it went up for pre-orders.
A lot of ReScapers are surfacing now who are coming back to Heroscape due to AOA. One guy showed up to a store event here after not playing for years, with his entire collection. And when I played another board game here with a guy I met on BGG recently about that other game, I mentioned Heroscape, and he said: "Hey, I have a bag of that stuff at my mom's house; I'll have to get it out again!"I didn't start this thread to be negative, but to figure out how I'm going to Scape in the future. I don't feel limited by Renegade; its just putting out more stuff, some of which I'm buying. For me, the heart of Heroscape is still my local buddies, who have been playing right along since the game came out or soon after that, and this site.
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nyys
quoting myself - insanity beckons
I'd really be shocked if Renegade sells a single common squad for $65 painted. I'd like to think they're not dsummies and realize commons will sell way more than uniques and will price accordingly.
Power creeping the game to make old units less viable sounds like an instant way to kill it.
It is a necessary evil in long running games. People need a reason to buy new content or there would eventually be no reason for new content to ever be made and the game would alienate new players eventually. It is why EVERY game that has been printing content for a long time has power creep in it. Otherwise companies would have zero reason to power creep anything. The creep needs to be incredibly slow and be done intelligently ofc.
Old players will obviously hate it because it means they have to keep buying new stuff. But with old content being difficult to get and will only get increasingly worse, what else can they do?
I suppose we could just have the game just stop making new content and Renegade do something else.
That would be cheaper then getting the Roman Legionnaires on Ebay new now already. If we compare it to used copies, it would be close to the same as just getting the Roman Legionnaires used alone. And those used copies may have damaged cards, worn down figures, etc. Perhaps you can find a nice deal, but there are only so many nice deals.
And the price is only going to go up from here. What are you going to do when most figures are 200+ on ebay or not available to purchase at all?
Actually, if anything, Scapers have been disappointed at how relatively weak most of the new AOA characters have been made, especially the more "fearsome" ones. Of course, these were designed by active fans--those of us who joined the Hasbro War Council of designers under original creator Craig Van Ness, before Renegade came into the picture. So far they and Renegade have carefully avoided power creep. Meanwhile, it is Build Points that have been adjusted, both by the fan community with "Delta Plus" or by Renegade with their own revised costs, for old characters that have seemed too strong.
Because they do not want to alienate old fans, especially since the new version is still really new. They might "rotate out" old figures or something in the future when more new content is released. Perhaps that is the best option.
Sure. I guess I'm saying that if old content feels invalidated by new content that *will* alienate old fans anyhow.
I'd like to think that Heroscapers are so used to lack of official support that maximum alienation wouldn't be that different from status quo 2012-2022.
I'm so fully alienated that I only play C3G