1. Maybe iconic is a bad word, as very few characters are truly iconic, including most of the figures I see on your preliminary list. My point was simply that there are a lot of good, meaty, and well-know Avengers villains to choose from.
That seems like a fairer assessment. Though I'd argue that many of those that made your list really aren't very well known outside of the Avengers fanbase. Kang, Doom, Thanos, Loki, sure. The others? Some probably, but a lot are pretty iffy in that regard.
I'm not at all against doing lesser known characters though, don't get me wrong. Heck, I spearheaded the inclusion of Count Vertigo in the World's Finest set.
I really only brought up the "iconic" thing to begin with as a way to get people talking about good Avenger villains to include. Looks like it's mission accomplished on that. Thanks for the help.
2. Clinging to the "well, this is what most people seem to want" argument is somewhat weak IMO. That certainly may be the way to go, but I think if you want these things to really appeal to people and give it a real sense of authenticity, then you go for what makes sense, not what casual fans want. If you have someone who really knows the Defenders or the Teen Titans, then I think you should rely on their expertise rather than go with a simply majority rule. That is truly the best way to get real flavor.
I think we can accomplish a balance between both these criteria, honestly. And when it comes to using "what people want" as a guideline, I'm not talking about the casual fan like you or Ollie. I'm talking about what the people working on the project actively want, like Matt Helm or Hahma.
It kind of goes back to the debate some time ago about Pym being a leader based on the logic that he could see over the battlefield and command his troops. While this is theoretically true, it did not make much sense thematically to anyone who was truly familiar with Pym's character.
So, do you want the easy way out by bowing to some general consensus, or do you want the best, most thematic set? I think there are ways to do both while still maintaining your community aspect.
Absolutely agree with what's in bold here.
As an obvious Avenger fan, I was pointing out grouping that did or did not make as much sense, regardless of what the general opinion was.
The only thing I'm absolutely trying to preserve based on general opinion is the inclusion of Thor in the first Avenger's booster. Other comments I made about what people thought were based on showing different opinions about what groupings do or do not make sense.
3. With regards to some of these characters, the NM24 versions are as good as you are going to get IMO. When you look at the card quality and the thematic strength of many of them, I think you are reinventing the wheel in some cases. While I am not involved with your group process, I have noted before that I feel that time is wasted in places that frankly, don't need work. So, with regards to Thor, I might rhetorically ask that question. While everyone agrees that Thor is one of the Avengers biggies, is the need really pressing? Are the current NM24 Thors sufficient? Is there an area of greater need that would also be more thematic? Do you bend the theme JUST BECAUSE you want Thor now? Something to think about.
I'm open to hearing what others think on this. For me, it's C3G or nothing (no disrespect to all the quality cards put out elsewhere, but if it's not playtested and put through this process, it's just not the same for me). So I'm still all about us doing Thor.
4. Ultron and Pym certainly could be in the same set, as they are obviously linked (yes, Pym created him), but Ultron doesn't really fit with the founding father theme, as he was years down the road.
Well it's an Avenger's Assemble theme, which is
kind of a founding father team, but could basically be from any era since that's their battle cry.
If you were doing an Ultron set (and he is a must for any Avenger lover...hence he was one of the first customs I did)...you might call it Pym Legacy or something kind of corny like that and go with Ultron, Vision, Jocasta, Giant Man, Wasp, and Yellowjacket (yes, two versions of Pym, which kind of makes sense with his split personality).
Not into doing two versions of Pym in the same booster at all. But fun idea for a thematic set. If we were to do something like that, though, I'd definitely wait on it for a few waves - Thor is the biggest Avenger priority, IMO.
5. I couldn't tell for sure (and I think you know it), but the Power Man I was referring to is not Luke Cage.
Oh, I'm aware of that. All I'm saying is the only version of Power Man I'm interested in seeing
is Luke Cage, not the Avenger villain Power Man.
6. Don't believe that Serpent Society has figures, but I believe there are a couple versions. One was a costumed bunch of villains. The other, actually called "Sons of the Serpent" is actually more of a radical subversive group. They would work great for squads as you could use any common thug/civilian type figures.
I think that characters with readily available figures have to take precedent for the most part.
7. I think Kang is far and away more an Avengers villain, much like Magneto is an X-men villian or Doom is a FF villain, even though both have faced the Avengers many times.
I counted 84 Avengers appearances and 4 FF appearances.
Now, that number of 4 seems ridiculously low, but remmber that he has aliases such as Rama-Tut and Immortus, which may boost his FF numbers (as well as the Avengers numbers). Bottom line, first and foremost, he is an Avengers guy IMO.
Fair enough. I knew I didn't put him in that Fantastic Four Master Set for a reason.
8. As for "hodge-podge" being the HS way. I disagree. While the overall game comes off that way with all the different themed squads, each booster is generally very tightly themed (all Romans, all Greeks, all Marro, etc.). I realize that for retail purposes, the hero packs don't fit this as well, but still, I think HS is more thematically geared than you are presenting.
"Snipers and Vipers" is pretty emblematic of how a typical Valhalla Heroscape booster is put together. There are a couple that go the other way (all Romans, all Orcs) but the majority does not. In fact, Greeks were packaged with Armoc Vipers, so even one of the examples you mentioned doesn't fit that mold.
I've yet to see a homogeneous wave from official Heroscape and I'd gamble that the majority of boosters are not homogeneous, though a few certainly are.
Now, that said, as much as I think hodgepodge is the "Heroscape way" I do like thematic boosters to an extent.
But we have to be flexible and place what characters we really want to see over the theme of the booster to some extent, IMO. We can't let theme absolutely dominate our decision making.
Still, there are ways to accomplish both to a reasonable extent.
Here are two ideas for adjusted versions of the Avengers Assemble booster. Of these, and the current idea (Thor, Vision, Giant Man, Wasp, Ultron) which do people like best?
Option 2
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
Ultron
Option 3
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
Black Widow
Ultron
It should be noted that Loki might be the more thematically appropriate villain choice in some of these boosters, but figure cost has prohibited his inclusion.
