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A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings
- Thread starter Matthias Maccabeus
- Start date
Tiny Timmy
New member
Okay I'll attempt to explain this to you. By using The figure; Realin; and Ratx3 core of the army.
Braxas/Ratx3/REalin = 410
Since Braxas has a high cost; in a 500point tourney it leaves you with 90 points left. Braxas has a range of 4 and able to hit 3 targets. By the time you have the ability to put up a decent screen; an experienced melee player will have his whole army in you're face. The amount of rats and the range of Braxas's special is her downfall with being an A+ unit; she has to be within 4 range which will have one's whole army in your face. That's not enough range for Braxas not to get pulverized quickly. I would guess 1-3 rounds of Braxas staying alive as an average once you're set up and the whole melee army is in your face. That and the 90 point clean up figure won't be enough to take on the other half of his army.
Nilf/Ratsx3/Realin= 385
Nilf may be more dangerous only because of his longer range. But it's almost the same; plus his special isn't all that big against Braxas's special. You are able to Defend against Nilf's while you can't really against Braxas. He may live a longer life in the same battle but he won't kill as many; (saying the dice are average on both sides.) However with this being a 115 point left you do have the other 115 points that could still take out the army which then just ups that unit(s) rank and not nilf's.
AE/Ratsx3/Realin= 310
190 points left to put in a few other units. THOSE UNITS will have to hold of the army until the AE DROP. IF they drop within the first 2-3 rounds then the game may be over; but if they drop after that it's all up on the dice and skill of the players.The drop keeps them from the A+ since it's random and the army still has to rely on the 190 points of the army at the beginning.
Q9/Ratsx3/Realin = 380
Q9 has long range to draw people in; Q9 has a special to take out multiple squads; Q9 still has a solid 120 points to put in for clean up. Q9 has a higher survivability then Braxas and the AE and arguably with Nilf; (6 life with 6-7 defense can contend with 4 life and 9-10 defense). There q9 just beast the Braxas army; and since he starts on the board he Beats out the AE. AND he doesn't have to rely on the 115 points to start picking people off before they hit your rat line with his entire force.
That is why Q9 is an A+ using the ratx2/realin pod rather then the other 3. If you don't see it why now then you're in denial; or I have failed in putting this into a comprehensible view for you.
I'll let this go after this post; I mostly just wanted to understand where Matthias was coming from with these rankings, and I think I get it now, so we can just agree to disagree if we're still disagreeing (which I think we are).
I want to be clear here - I agree 100% with Q9 being an A+ in Jexik's rankings, and being the only offensive figure ranked A+. But the main reasons for that are:
If I know I'm facing bonding melee, there are several things I'd rather have behind a rat screen over Q9, including Braxas, Nilfheim, and Airborne. I'd rather have more killing power while the screen is in place, even if it means my range is going to drop faster if the screen gets cracked. Nilfheim and Braxas are both more likely to kill all the knights before the rats die than Q9 is.
Yes, Q9 is easy to use, but again, so are a big pile of stingers. (I agree that the AE are tricky to use and get used wrong a lot.) All I'm saying is that if we're looking at it from a purely melee perspective, I don't see why Q9 should be singled out as the lone A+ (non-Raelin, non-rat) figure.
I agree that that the ratsx3/Braxas/Raelin 410 point core is too expensive for a 500 point build, but it can work pretty well at higher point totals. At 470 with Marro Warriors and the Airborne Elite, they won the main event. Also, Nilfheim and the Airborne leave enough points for the other one; together that's extremely nasty to melee armies. Or you could add Krav/Marro/Q10/whatever, depending on the points.
I want to be clear here - I agree 100% with Q9 being an A+ in Jexik's rankings, and being the only offensive figure ranked A+. But the main reasons for that are:
- Q9's special is ridiculously versatile. killercactus has gone over this before, so I won't get into the details. But that versatility is not all that useful against melee bonded armies, who aren't especially vulnerable to special attacks and who all have 3 defense or more. Against bonded melee, it's basically a triple attack of 3 that can't get height advantage, which is good but not anything out of the ordinary.
- Q9 owns opposing ranged figures, hard. You name it - if it's ranged, it doesn't want to face Q9. Krav, Kaemon, Airborne, Q10, Marro Warriors, all the dragons, 4th, and 10th all usually lose to Q9. The only exception, really, is stingers. Every other strong counter to Q9 is melee - usually melee with bonding.
If I know I'm facing bonding melee, there are several things I'd rather have behind a rat screen over Q9, including Braxas, Nilfheim, and Airborne. I'd rather have more killing power while the screen is in place, even if it means my range is going to drop faster if the screen gets cracked. Nilfheim and Braxas are both more likely to kill all the knights before the rats die than Q9 is.
Yes, Q9 is easy to use, but again, so are a big pile of stingers. (I agree that the AE are tricky to use and get used wrong a lot.) All I'm saying is that if we're looking at it from a purely melee perspective, I don't see why Q9 should be singled out as the lone A+ (non-Raelin, non-rat) figure.
I agree that that the ratsx3/Braxas/Raelin 410 point core is too expensive for a 500 point build, but it can work pretty well at higher point totals. At 470 with Marro Warriors and the Airborne Elite, they won the main event. Also, Nilfheim and the Airborne leave enough points for the other one; together that's extremely nasty to melee armies. Or you could add Krav/Marro/Q10/whatever, depending on the points.
Both of those are functionally the same for basically every other ranged figure if the opponent is all-melee. Braxas's 4 range is more than enough to work from behind the rats. All you lose by comparison to Q9 is a couple potshots taken against the melee army on the way in, which are nice but aren't crucial (and can be handled by some other unique squad, anyway).
That's definitely true, but he still drops pretty fast and won't generally earn his points once the screen cracks and there's three knights in his face. Those attacks of 4 (with Gilbert) will take him down pretty fast. Where Q9's high defense really shines is when he's taking down 20 minutemen or 16 redcoats, where they get attacks of 3 if they're lucky and mostly attacks of 2.
Just about every army imaginable is going to have at least two offensive threats. It's not that big of a deal to, say, put some early OMs on the Krav and then shift to Braxas when the other army gets close.
Again, I completely agree with Q9 being the only non-rat, non-Raelin A+ figure. I just think that's true because of what he can do to range. If we're only considering how he matches up with all-melee, I really don't think he's a cut above Nilfheim, et al.
You're absolutely right that rats will allow Kozuke/Ninjas/HSBs to get first strike against most melee opponents. However, that's basically all it gets you - first strike. After that, it's up to the figures themselves to hold up to opposing attacks. And the Kozuke and NotNW are not all that great in that regard when facing 12 or 16 or 20 bonding squad figures. (The HSBs actually might do quite well - I don't think they need cutters to be effective.)
By contrast, a ranged figure can force an army like the knights or the sacred band to kill almost every deathreaver before they get to attack the offensive threats. It's a totally different dynamic. The rats aren't just buying the ranged figures first strike - they're buying them the first dozen strikes.
MattserTruckRally
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2007, 2009, & 2012
I agree with dok's point about Q9. It's not the Major that beats opposing melee armies. It's having to cut through 12+ Reavers and then deal with Raelin enchanced troops that puts them in a bind. I only played against one Q9 last week when playing Knightsx3/Gilbert and was able to easily dispatch the Major while losing 3-4 Knights in the process. Q9 was even at height as well but was sadly friendless. (No Reavers/Raelin)
Looking at the individual units it can be argued a unit like Kaemon Awa would present a much more frustrating threat to a melee based team due to counterstrike, a seven ranged threat of 4 dice and an even more frustrating double attack of 4. Let's not even talk about how much worse this would become when backed by Raelin and ten million Deathreavers.
Looking at the individual units it can be argued a unit like Kaemon Awa would present a much more frustrating threat to a melee based team due to counterstrike, a seven ranged threat of 4 dice and an even more frustrating double attack of 4. Let's not even talk about how much worse this would become when backed by Raelin and ten million Deathreavers.
Matthias Maccabeus
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time & Gencon Main
I think dok where you keep getting confused is that you think these rankings are how good certain units are against melee period. I think wriggz put it best in post 39 -
wriggz said:
Thanks for saying what I was saying in a much quicker/easier-to-read format, Matt.
In that case, I'm fine with Q9 as an A+, and my only issue is that I think stingers should be a bit higher. Sure they're bad against melee, but they're good against Q9 and redcoats, and that's a lot of what you see at tournaments. But I'm done complaining; they're your rankings and there's a good argument for why you put them there. There's a reason stingers did pretty poorly overall at GenCon this year, after all.
Yep, that was my confusion. I knew it was one of those two things but I had misinterpreted your previous efforts to clarify. Sorry about that.
In that case, I'm fine with Q9 as an A+, and my only issue is that I think stingers should be a bit higher. Sure they're bad against melee, but they're good against Q9 and redcoats, and that's a lot of what you see at tournaments. But I'm done complaining; they're your rankings and there's a good argument for why you put them there. There's a reason stingers did pretty poorly overall at GenCon this year, after all.
Tiny Timmy
New member
Braxas Range of 4; yeah sure it can reach over a rat screen; however a single crack on the rat screen can cause the melee to get to braxas before you have a chance to do anything about it. The Same goes for anything directly behind the rat screen.
Rats make any unit behind them Good with an Experienced player. For instance I can take Syvarris, or Zetacron and make them Overpowered behind a rat screen; however it's how the unit acts behind the rat screen. Braxas and nilf have the squad fighting ability but they can't really make anyone uneasy and attack prematurely. Q9 can; the AE can but the AE still need the other points to compensate until they drop.
Also; Like I said; Rats are for girls(including inexperienced players).
Now; lets go back to why I started posting on this thread for.
@ Matthias
Cyprien's a beast and you know it.
The Sacred Band; Romans; and dwarves may not handle other armies "quite as well" against other builds as Knights and Orcs. They still deserve to be an A-.
Sacred Band - only reason why knights and orcs beat them is because of their army disciplined power; limits there already limited bonding options and army companions. That and in tournaments you go to only like 1 person if any have the Sacred Band due to their scarcity...
Romans - They're ancient; and just got rereleased within the last year or so. They're most diverse in their bonding options. There downfall is there shield wall ability.
Dwarves - they can handle things better then knights and Orcs. with their large figure bonus and there bonding flexibility. Only thing Knights and Orcs have against them is the dwarves flexibility with bonding; having to choose 6 move vs bonding.
Wolves of Badru - with or without bonding they are just as good at what they do as the anubians; if it wasn't for Khosumet sucking; and now the WL being a bit too much I would have them instead of the Anubians in my Vampire/Werewolf army. The Badru shouldn't be at the D+ but at C or C+. The difference between them is; Anubians have a higher defense better against range however have that possiblity at suicide; while the badru don't have the possible suicide every start of the turn but the situational suicide.
You've always said the more attacks the better; that's why I think the Drones should be bumped up.
When you speak that you haven't seen any tourney valor from these units; is because THEY ARE NOT POPULAR ENOUGH. Few competitive players will pick the SB or the Drones or the WoB instead of the top tier armies.
I have to go I'll finish up later...
Rats make any unit behind them Good with an Experienced player. For instance I can take Syvarris, or Zetacron and make them Overpowered behind a rat screen; however it's how the unit acts behind the rat screen. Braxas and nilf have the squad fighting ability but they can't really make anyone uneasy and attack prematurely. Q9 can; the AE can but the AE still need the other points to compensate until they drop.
Also; Like I said; Rats are for girls(including inexperienced players).
Now; lets go back to why I started posting on this thread for.
@ Matthias
Cyprien's a beast and you know it.
The Sacred Band; Romans; and dwarves may not handle other armies "quite as well" against other builds as Knights and Orcs. They still deserve to be an A-.
Sacred Band - only reason why knights and orcs beat them is because of their army disciplined power; limits there already limited bonding options and army companions. That and in tournaments you go to only like 1 person if any have the Sacred Band due to their scarcity...
Romans - They're ancient; and just got rereleased within the last year or so. They're most diverse in their bonding options. There downfall is there shield wall ability.
Dwarves - they can handle things better then knights and Orcs. with their large figure bonus and there bonding flexibility. Only thing Knights and Orcs have against them is the dwarves flexibility with bonding; having to choose 6 move vs bonding.
Wolves of Badru - with or without bonding they are just as good at what they do as the anubians; if it wasn't for Khosumet sucking; and now the WL being a bit too much I would have them instead of the Anubians in my Vampire/Werewolf army. The Badru shouldn't be at the D+ but at C or C+. The difference between them is; Anubians have a higher defense better against range however have that possiblity at suicide; while the badru don't have the possible suicide every start of the turn but the situational suicide.
You've always said the more attacks the better; that's why I think the Drones should be bumped up.
When you speak that you haven't seen any tourney valor from these units; is because THEY ARE NOT POPULAR ENOUGH. Few competitive players will pick the SB or the Drones or the WoB instead of the top tier armies.
I have to go I'll finish up later...
Matthias Maccabeus
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time & Gencon Main
Every bonding army you compare to the knights and / or heavies and say they would be just as good as them except for (fill in the blank). That's my whole point! A rating of a B means they are good just not great which is essentially what you are saying when you (fill in the blank).
As for Drones, WoB, etc they aren't popular enough because.... THEY SUCK!
@ dok
When I sit down to play a game of heroScape and I see stingers across from me I never worry even if it's Spider Poison using them. If I sit down and see Q9 against me I worry, even if it's against my 5 year old daughter.
I think the stingers rise in popularity was as you mentioned because they can take down Q9, redcoats, and are a decent match-up behind rats for the 4th. But nobody was really playing melee WELL except for a few people when they were at the top of the spectrum. And those few people have been saying stingers are way overrated for years. And I believe people are starting to hear that. I did see Dignan finished 3rd at NHSD in TX, but I wonder if he faced any hard core melee armies.
Panopticon
Active member
He did. If I remember correctly, he faced BroInLaw's Heavy Grut army in the first round.
BroInLaw had:
Grimnak
Nerak
Heavies x5
Matthias Maccabeus
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time & Gencon Main
And the heavies lost?! BroInLaw I am ashamed!
What about you with stingers? How instrumental were the wyrmlings?
Panopticon
Active member
They definitely helped. I faced two armies with Minions and one with the Krav, which the blacks handled very well. Other than that, their flying and strong attacks allowed me some good positioning options to take out key figures that were threatening my weak points.
I also found that, because they're so new, people tended to underestimate them and gun for my stingers instead, which also helped.
The only 4 member, bonding melee squads I faced where Dwarves x2 and Darrak. I think I may have struggled a bit more if I would've faced more heavy melee armies.
airdroppers
has been BANNED
I don't see how stingers are good against the 10th, they have one less figure and less range. On a perfect turn they can't take out a full squad of 10th, so I don't see the advantage. If I am playing the 10th and I see stingers across from me, I'm not worried.
In my experience, stingers tend to win the fight if they do a good job with positioning. A good stinger player is going to back stingers away and fire at the edge of the 10th regiment at max range. The 10th typically have to move to get a full activation of return fire. 4x2Av3D is not as effective as 3x3Av2D, even when you take into account that stingers are very slightly more expensive per figure.
If the 10th can leverage their range advantage into a consistent height advantage, then yes, they have a big advantage, but in practice that's pretty tricky to do in a range vs. range battle unless the terrain gaps are just so.
killercactus
The Guy That Thinks Runa is Good (and has actually
The 10th nearly always have Raelin though, and they can dictate the location of the fight to some extent with their superior range. If the Stinger player wants to kill Raelin, they have to come close enough for the 10th to get a full activation, which is bad. That usually means the Stingers (sometimes with Raelin, but oftentimes without her) are firing at Raelin-backed 10th, which is a loss.
Matthias - I wouldn't expect you to ever be afraid of Stingers, because all you play is Knights x4 or 5 or Orcs x4 or 5 or some other squad heavy army that's based around getting lots of activations and attacks (which is good, by the way). Those are exactly the kind of armies that Stingers hate to see. I think I screwed up at GenCon playing against Worseley's Stingers with my Vipers - I played Q9 for far too long against them. I should've gotten the Vipers into the fight earlier than I did, and I think I could've won that game.
Sit down across from Stingers though playing something like Q9/Raelin/Rats or Greenscales and you'll at least be nervous. Those are the types of armies that Stingers excel against, and those armies happen to be good. That's what makes the Stingers strong.
Matthias - I wouldn't expect you to ever be afraid of Stingers, because all you play is Knights x4 or 5 or Orcs x4 or 5 or some other squad heavy army that's based around getting lots of activations and attacks (which is good, by the way). Those are exactly the kind of armies that Stingers hate to see. I think I screwed up at GenCon playing against Worseley's Stingers with my Vipers - I played Q9 for far too long against them. I should've gotten the Vipers into the fight earlier than I did, and I think I could've won that game.
Sit down across from Stingers though playing something like Q9/Raelin/Rats or Greenscales and you'll at least be nervous. Those are the types of armies that Stingers excel against, and those armies happen to be good. That's what makes the Stingers strong.
Matthias Maccabeus
Don't Need Range in the Knight-time & Gencon Main
After the discussion in the Casters of Valhalla thread, I went ahead and updated this.
This is from a melee (only) player's perspective (mainly bonding melee).
No, I did not include "how good is this unit with Raelin" in my rankings. It just doesn't make sense to me to do that. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that. It's just wrong for me to do that.
Yes, I did include "how good is this unit with chain fighters" in my rankings.
This is from a melee (only) player's perspective (mainly bonding melee).
No, I did not include "how good is this unit with Raelin" in my rankings. It just doesn't make sense to me to do that. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that. It's just wrong for me to do that.
Yes, I did include "how good is this unit with chain fighters" in my rankings.
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Dok VERY highly values my approval or disapproval of him.
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I disagree with this
Those are in the "S" category - so far above all other figures that only the cheapest looser would play them in any tournament, and it invalidates all wins with them. He put them in F to try to trick us.
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
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