caps' maps - 5/11 This'l up for critique

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Thanks for the review Viegon!

Ah, I should have thought of that. I'll see what I can do, but I think some of the SZ are 24-hexxers. I'll give it a shot sometime soon.

Yeah, I think your right here. Still, it might be possible to change the shape of the map ever-so-slightly to achieve the same goal. I look forward to what you come up with if/when you make some changes.

[capsocrates]

I have created a HeroSkype version of Reset.

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Here is Reset, one of my entries in Rÿchean's map contest.



Along with several 3D reference images--one never cuts it for me, if I don't have the board buillt, although you could probably get away with using just two or three of these.

Angle-One -- Red SZ 1
Angle-Two -- Red SZ 2
Angle-Three -- Center 1
Angle-Four -- Center 2
Angle-Five -- Green SZ 1
Angle-Six -- Green SZ 2

Originally Posted by Viegon

Yeah, I think your right here. Still, it might be possible to change the shape of the map ever-so-slightly to achieve the same goal. I look forward to what you come up with if/when you make some changes.

Did you ever see the other .pdf I sent you, Viegon? I think it actually used too many pieces, but after looking at it I realized that you just need to keep track of the numbers. The rightmost SZ is only 5 spaces along the jagged edge of the board, starting at the column, there's a triad next to the road, then along the bottom there are 7 spaces starting at the rightmost edge, and the rest all fit neatly against the leftmost edge 2-deep.

EDIT: I just realized that I never put the latest version of Reset up here, although I submitted the correct one to the map contest.

Reset

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Did you ever see the other .pdf I sent you, Viegon? I think it actually used too many pieces, but after looking at it I realized that you just need to keep track of the numbers. The rightmost SZ is only 5 spaces along the jagged edge of the board, starting at the column, there's a triad next to the road, then along the bottom there are 7 spaces starting at the rightmost edge, and the rest all fit neatly against the leftmost edge 2-deep.

Yes, I did. Did I not respond to you?

As to your other point, yes, just remembering the numbers helps count them out; and that's what I used. My suggestion to color the startzones was just that: a suggestion. It works well enough without it.

[capsocrates]

This is a semi-new map I'm working on. I'm calling it "Reset the Swamp."

Here are the build instructions.

[tannergx]

Hi capsocrates,

I don't usually comment on other people's maps, but thought I'd share a thought when I saw your latest offering. Both of your entries in the recent map contest fared better than mine, so I wouldn't take issue if you dismissed it. But I think you should re-assess how you've used the road tiles here.

Road is particularly useful in increasing the threat range of melee units. It allows them to cover more ground in a turn, and more effectively engage ranged units (especially ranged with height). With your current version of Reset the Swamp, I'm not sure if any units could take advantage of the extra moment that the road offers. So I think you are leaving something on the table with how you've used the road tiles, and it's an element that could otherwise improve game-play on the map.

Again, not trying to criticize. Just thought I'd share my first reaction and give you something to think about.

Cheers,

~tgx

[capsocrates]

Originally Posted by tannergx

Hi capsocrates,

I don't usually comment on other people's maps, but thought I'd share a thought when I saw your latest offering. Both of your entries in the recent map contest fared better than mine, so I wouldn't take issue if you dismissed it. But I think you should re-assess how you've used the road tiles here.

Road is particularly useful in increasing the threat range of melee units. It allows them to cover more ground in a turn, and more effectively engage ranged units (especially ranged with height). With your current version of Reset the Swamp, I'm not sure if any units could take advantage of the extra moment that the road offers. So I think you are leaving something on the table with how you've used the road tiles, and it's an element that could otherwise improve game-play on the map.

Again, not trying to criticize. Just thought I'd share my first reaction and give you something to think about.

Cheers,

~tgx

Thanks for the feedback Tanner. The map is in its early design phase and is just a modified version of Reset (as I'm sure you could tell). Since I used the RttFF I wanted to use some road just to use all the terrain in the set and decided to go for lateral movement. If I find it doesn't work I think I'll just remove it altogether, but I think it offers a means to quickly move from the left side of the map to the right side; to go after range hanging out on the other side of the map, or charge at the glyph on the other side of the map after securing the first glyph. Playing on it will probably reveal that it's totally useless. Fast lateral movement is much more useful in wider, shorter maps, especially when there are teams involved*.

I will consider using the road for forward movement after I've played on it some, but I think that might detract from the integrity of the map as I intended it.

Thanks again for the feedback!

[tannergx]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I think it offers a means to quickly move from the left side of the map to the right side; to go after range hanging out on the other side of the map, or charge at the glyph on the other side of the map after securing the first glyph.

Hi caps, nothing wrong with using road to enhance lateral movement, but in that case I usually find it better to have the road near the mid-point of the map - usually where the highest ground is. That way, melee can advance on the weak side against a ranged opponent, and then sweep over to their strong side.

Also, I'd encourage you to try and include the road tiles in a way that enhances the map, rather than just dropping them. Using just the trees is a total waste of that expansion in my opinion.

Follow-up: I went and dug up an old thread from Velenne where he outlined his views on advanced map-making. I'm not sure I agree with everything he said, and the requirements (and materials) of tournament maps have advanced since then, but it was one of the first "theory" threads that influenced me. It's here if you are interested.

Cheers,

~tgx

[capsocrates]

Originally Posted by tannergx

Hi caps, nothing wrong with using road to enhance lateral movement, but in that case I usually find it better to have the road near the mid-point of the map - usually where the highest ground is. That way, melee can advance on the weak side against a ranged opponent, and then sweep over to their strong side.

Also, I'd encourage you to try and include the road tiles in a way that enhances the map, rather than just dropping them. Using just the trees is a total waste of that expansion in my opinion.

Cheers,

~tgx

Thanks again for the suggestions. For the latter half of what you were saying, is this more to your taste?



Or, slightly modified, more like this?

[tannergx]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

For the latter half of what you were saying, is this more to your taste?

I think both versions are easily improvements on the first draft; I can see scenarios where the roads would at least be used. (Note: For both, I'd drop the guard rails though. With the current placement, what effect to game-play does their inclusion introduce?) And of the two versions, I think the second is better in that the road gives better access to one of the desirable hills for ranged units.

In my view, and as a simple rule, the more I can make road adjacent to the desirable high ground, the more likely my map will be balanced for range vs. melee. But, like all simple rules, there are exceptions and caveats (for example optimizing LOS blockers is something that needs to also be factored).

Lastly, I updated my last post with a theory thread from Velenne that I think you might find interesting. And if so, you should look for MadWookie's map-making blog posts, read Dignan's comments about his own maps, and just read through the BOV reviews for more tips and nuance about material optimization and map-balance. Those guys are the masters afterall.

Cheers,

~tgx

[capsocrates]

Originally Posted by tannergx

I think both versions are easily improvements on the first draft; I can see scenarios where the roads would at least be used. (Note: For both, I'd drop the guard rails though. With the current placement, what effect to game-play does their inclusion introduce?) And of the two versions, I think the second is better in that the road gives better access to one of the desirable hills for ranged units.

In my view, and as a simple rule, the more I can make road adjacent to the desirable high ground, the more likely my map will be balanced for range vs. melee. But, like all simple rules, there are exceptions and caveats (for example optimizing LOS blockers is something that needs to also be factored).

Lastly, I updated my last post with a theory thread from Velenne that I think you might find interesting. And if so, you should look for MadWookie's map-making blog posts, read Dignan's comments about his own maps, and just read through the BOV reviews for more tips and nuance about material optimization and map-balance. Those guys are the masters afterall.

Cheers,

~tgx

Those are good ideas. I might do that sometime. Its hard to explain why, but I kind of want to keep doing my own thing for a while before I read any guides, but eventually I will "study up" on map-making.

[Gurei-Ornery]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Mulberry Bush

Spoiler Alert!

I renovated this one quite a bit.

I like Mulberry Bush. Nice use of negative space. I will have to try it out.

[capsocrates]

Originally Posted by Gurei-Ornery

I like Mulberry Bush. Nice use of negative space. I will have to try it out.

Thanks! If you want to play it the way I intended it, you may want to put castle walls all the way around on the inside edge. The official rules on negative space are inconsistent with what I had in mind for this map.