What if Common Squads were more Uncommon

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

Uncommon squads are something I've wanted to see discussed shortly after the advent of Uncommon heroes in the DnD releases. Since nothing prevalent popped up I figured I'd start it myself.

I'd like this thread to be about 2 things...

1. What if when Heroscape was first designed common squads had worked more like the new uncommon heroes do.
-How would the mechanics work?
-How would it have changed the game?
This number 1 was my main motivation for this thread.

2. Adding uncommon squads to the game and thoughts on which squads from the past would make good uncommon ones.
-How would the mechanics work.
-What past squads would work as uncommon squads?
-Do you actually want to see uncommon squads introduced to the game?
-What effects could it have on the meta-game?


Edit: The following are my own personal thoughts on uncommons or if the commons worked more like uncommons from the start.

The way I would like to see the mechanics work is for each squad to be identified seperately (like the uncommon heroes), but still have the order marker flexibility of common squads/heroes.

I'll use this picture as an example to clarify(photo originally posted by Revdyer). Note that there are 3 knights with blue highlighted bases, 3 with white highlighted bases, and 2 with the standard brown base (one is hidden good by Krug). Now say you reveal an order marker on the brown base knights card. Instead of taking a turn with those 2 remaining brown base knights you could take a turn with the 3 remaining blue base knights. With this method moving squads forward and attacking would be order marker efficient, however the squads would not remain as powerful for as long as commons do now due to individual squad attrition.
-Wether or not uncommon squads could benefit from viking spirits/treasure glyphs is a toss up to me, but first thought is sure why not(it would still only give benefits to the 1 squad it was placed on).
-I know this isn't consistent with how the uncommon hero works, but for game play it's what I'd prefer. The uncommon squad would be more in need of order marker flexibility, since a loss of a squad figure(wound) would cause a loss of possible attacks as opposed to a wound on an uncommon hero not changing it's attack potential(except special cases like the hydra).

For past squads, some of the more powerful ones could be kept in check if they were uncommon. The 4th mass. wouldn't be able to keep up attacking with 4 attacks for nearly as long, assuming you'd focus on eliminating at least 1 figure from each of their squads.
-How about making a unique squad into an uncommon. The Tarn Vikings could get a boost from being done this way.

If uncommon squads did exist in this capacity I think it would really swing the meta-game to being more hero heavy, as the current releases seem to be trying to do.

I don't have any desire to see uncommon squads in the game, but thinking about what heroscape would be like if common squads had started off the way I described above got me thinking.
Now the reason I started this thread in the first place, so that I could see everyone's opinions and all the other good stuff people post.

[chief]

I was thinking of this exact thing! But figured I could not a make a great starting thread. My ideas are pretty similar. For new squads they should not be able to pick different figures from a different card. Instead they should just all be considered part of the same card. Like regualr squads. But when you activate the order marker you just choose which color to use. For old guys I think the Airborne, Tarn, and Ninjas could all be uncommon.

[Ivellius]

I briefly mentioned this idea (uncommon squads) on another thread but never really elaborated.

I'd argue that what you're describing, however, isn't the same as the "uncommon" designation given to the Feral Troll and other such heroes. I'm not saying your suggestion is a bad idea, but uncommons simply don't have order marker flexibility. To posit the idea of "uncommon squads," we need to keep the definitions the same; otherwise, the game would become more confusing. So for my post I'll assume uncommon means the same as it does for heroes: the only difference between uncommons and uniques is that you can have multiple cards and thus have to mark the figures and associated cards somehow. Viking spirits are also obviously allowed for uncommon squads with my definition--with yours, does the boost apply to all existing cards? That's a pretty decent step up in power for the spirits. Treasure glyphs are only usable by heroes, so they don't work with squads.

I think out of the existing cards, the Zettians might be most benefited by "uncommon" status. Most seem to think that they'd work better with multiples (you get more use out of DW9K's range boost or the Warden's leadership with more Zettians). Other than that...well, the thing about uncommons is that they really aren't stronger than uniques. The cards already strong as uniques would be great as uncommons, and the weaker ones probably don't have enough boosts from various heroes to make them worth a whole lot more as uncommons. Kato might make the various samurai unique squads worth more as uncommons, I guess, but you'd have to play large point games before it'd matter much.

[Fourshadow]

Oh please NO! It just doesn't make sense for squads and only complicates the game.

[Eirikr]

Originally Posted by Fourshadow

Oh please NO! It just doesn't make sense for squads and only complicates the game.

It really doesn't make much sense for heroes either from a gameplay perspective.
I believe that the uncommon heros exist for one reason only, the pool of figures availble from the D&D miniature line does not have enough viable sets of figures to form (common) squads and the folks at WotC do not want to release a bunch of uniques no one will buy and while we will want multiples of common heros I think there is a limit to how many are really useful due to their single figure per order marker and their relative weakness (unless we have a whole lot more figures like Kurrok in the future but there is a limit to how many such figures they can create I hope). Enter the uncommon hero. Can be just as powerful as a unique hero making it more viable and you can have multiples. Hence the birth of the uncommon hero. They have no significant effect on the game otherwise.
Given this logic there is no good reason for them to develop uncommon squads but if they do they most certainly won't be eligable fort he treasure glyphs (though possibly for the Viking Spirits).

[wriggz]

A couple ideas for multi life squads (uncommon squad):

Originally Posted by wriggz

Physic Twins that share multiple lifes would also be neat, or a squad of magic skelton warriors that only die when they get 4 wounds on the card.

A master with a slave monster that had no hit zones would be awsome. Both figures would have the same attack and range, however the Monster could not be hit and wounds would rack up on the card when the master is attacked, until both figures were removed.

Thus there may be a use for the uncommon denominator when it comes to squads.

[Robotech Master]

Eh, I'm not "feeling it."

Uncommon heroes were created primarily for one reason. That being, they wanted to represent the D&D scenario of running into multiple trolls or Wyverns or what have you, but since the available figs weren't suited to making squads, they would have to go to common heroes. But common heroes have 1 life to preserve the order marker flexibility of the figures not be tied to specific cards, and it didn't sit right with them that a creature with the notorious regeneration or tenacity of those D&D monsters to die with one unlucky defense dice roll.

Thus, Uncommon was made to create a situation where you could draft multiple of the heroes, but needed to keep the figures and their specific cards tracked to keep the wounds counted.

So with the idea of uncommon squads, the first thing that comes to mind is that it seems wholly unnecessary. First, it feels unnecessary thematically, because I have a hard time picturing something that I think could *only* be represented by a squad with multiple lives. IE, I don't feel like Uncommon squads is something needed to fill a hole, to fix a problem the original rules/terms couldn't cover. Uncommon heroes was invented to fix a issue, but I don't see an issue with the way squads are handled.

Secondly, it feels unnecessary from a technical standpoint, because I think a hallmark of the unique and now uncommon heroes is that they have more than 1 life, while squads get a multi-activation, but are each destroyed if they take one wound. Inventing an uncommon squad would, I think, only further the advancement of squadscape as squads start to take more of the heroes' unique traits away from them.

Then there is a design issue that, while possible to implement, seems kinda weird all the same. Not only would you have to keep track of the card the squad specifically belongs to, but the cards design would have to be changed to implement seperate areas where wound markers are placed for specific members of that squad. This would be necessary so that you knew how many wounds were on each individual figure.

While its an idea that *could* be implemented, I feel like we should stay away from it for as long as we feel that we don't *need* to do it. I don't think such a big change needs to come along just because we can.

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

Originally Posted by Ivellius

I'd argue that what you're describing, however, isn't the same as the "uncommon" designation given to the Feral Troll and other such heroes. I'm not saying your suggestion is a bad idea, but uncommons simply don't have order marker flexibility. To posit the idea of "uncommon squads," we need to keep the definitions the same; otherwise, the game would become more confusing. So for my post I'll assume uncommon means the same as it does for heroes: the only difference between uncommons and uniques is that you can have multiple cards and thus have to mark the figures and associated cards somehow. Viking spirits are also obviously allowed for uncommon squads with my definition--with yours, does the boost apply to all existing cards? That's a pretty decent step up in power for the spirits. Treasure glyphs are only usable by heroes, so they don't work with squads.

Part of my intentions of this thread were a what if type scenario. Like what if from the start of scape common squads had still been called common, but worked the way I described an uncommon squad.

And the glyphs and such would only effect the 1 squad that they were on.

I updated the original post to better reflect my intentions.

Originally Posted by Eirikr

It really doesn't make much sense for heroes either from a gameplay perspective.
I believe that the uncommon heros exist for one reason only, the pool of figures availble from the D&D miniature line does not have enough viable sets of figures to form (common) squads and the folks at WotC do not want to release a bunch of uniques no one will buy and while we will want multiples of common heros I think there is a limit to how many are really useful due to their single figure per order marker and their relative weakness (unless we have a whole lot more figures like Kurrok in the future but there is a limit to how many such figures they can create I hope). Enter the uncommon hero. Can be just as powerful as a unique hero making it more viable and you can have multiples. Hence the birth of the uncommon hero. They have no significant effect on the game otherwise.
Given this logic there is no good reason for them to develop uncommon squads but if they do they most certainly won't be eligable fort he treasure glyphs (though possibly for the Viking Spirits).

That's why I described the uncommon squad as being able to choose which squad to activate upon revealing an order marker. For gameplay you'd be able to move several squads up and when one of them was damaged take a turn with one that was at full strength. I'm not suggesting they make an uncommon squad class, just how the game could be different if common squads worked the way I described from the start of heroscape. Or if you could change the way some squads worked and leave others alone. Just anything to do with using squads more like the new uncommon hero class.

I updated the original post and thread title to better illustrate what I was trying to say.

[TheSparkleInYourWater]

Originally Posted by Robotech Master

Eh, I'm not "feeling it."

So with the idea of uncommon squads, the first thing that comes to mind is that it seems wholly unnecessary. First, it feels unnecessary thematically, because I have a hard time picturing something that I think could *only* be represented by a squad with multiple lives. IE, I don't feel like Uncommon squads is something needed to fill a hole, to fix a problem the original rules/terms couldn't cover. Uncommon heroes was invented to fix a issue, but I don't see an issue with the way squads are handled.

Secondly, it feels unnecessary from a technical standpoint, because I think a hallmark of the unique and now uncommon heroes is that they have more than 1 life, while squads get a multi-activation, but are each destroyed if they take one wound. Inventing an uncommon squad would, I think, only further the advancement of squadscape as squads start to take more of the heroes' unique traits away from them.

Then there is a design issue that, while possible to implement, seems kinda weird all the same. Not only would you have to keep track of the card the squad specifically belongs to, but the cards design would have to be changed to implement seperate areas where wound markers are placed for specific members of that squad. This would be necessary so that you knew how many wounds were on each individual figure.

Sorry, my original post was a little unclear I suppose. I updated it.
My idea was to say if commons had worked more like uncommons from the beginning of scape.

The squad members wouldn't have more than 1 life a piece, rather you'd only be able to take a turn with the remaining members of 1 squad. If you have 4 minions of utgar, but 1 from each of your cards is destroyed you'd only be able to activate 2 of them. This would actually weaken squads considerably and swing the game over to the hero side.

[jbbnbsmith]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of uncommon heroes. But uncommon squads sounds like a nightmare to me.

To play along with your "what if" scenario, if this is how common squads had been designed from the beginning, I doubt I would have stuck with this game as long as I did.

Maybe one day I'll actually open up my MS3.

[Taeblewalker]

If you painted the different Tarns squads different colors, then you could keep track of them better, I suppose. It would be quite a nightmare.

[kolakoski]

Originally Posted by jbbnbsmith

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of uncommon heroes. But uncommon squads sounds like a nightmare to me.

To play along with your "what if" scenario, if this is how common squads had been designed from the beginning, I doubt I would have stuck with this game as long as I did.

Maybe one day I'll actually open up my MS3.

To quote one of my recent critics, "[w]hat he said".